Apocalympics 2012 – Mayan “Prophecy”

The Maya of ancient Mexico had very advanced concepts of mathematics, astronomy and Time. They kept track of solar and lunar years, eclipses and the cycles of visible planets. To carry out their calendric and astronomical calculations they developed a sophisticated mathematical system where units are written with dots and bars are used to represent five units. They also developed a vigesimal (20 base) positioning system, similar to the decimal positioning system we use today.

mayandate

Today’s date written according to the Mayan calendar

The Maya’s sacred book, the Popol Vuh, explains the creation of the Universe – with all the usual gods and goddesses, a Plumed Serpent and a Flood. According to their beliefs, Creation happened after Tepeu, the Sky God, and Gukumatz, the Plumed Serpent (or plain old Snake God, depending on which interpretation you follow) decided that they needed to be worshipped. Why is it that these all-powerful beings are always so insecure? Anyway, it took the Maya Creation Gods several attempts to create Human Beings who would worship them (a bit like God’s first attempt at creating Woman). First, they created animals who didn’t worship them, so they banished them to the forest. Next, they created Man out of mud, but soon they just washed away (there’s a lesson for you, Yaweh). Next, they created Man out of wood, but they were pretty rubbish at ‘worshipping’ so the Gods got angry and Flooded the place to get rid of them. Finally, Worshipful Man was made out of Maize.

The Maya used several calendars simultaneously – one was 13 days long, another was 20 days long, they had one which covered 260 days and another covering 365 days. They even had calendars covering much longer periods of Time. One of these called the ‘Long Count’, and is a continuous record of days from the ‘Zero date’ beginning of the Worshipful Man- which according to the Maya’s detailed calendars happened at Long Count 0.0.0.0.0. This date is thought to correspond to August 12th or 13th, 3114 BCE in the Gregorian calendar. According to the Maya, the current Long Count will finish on 13.0.0.0.0 or on the 21st or 23rd of December 2012 CE.

Alautun

The alautun: The Maya’s longest named period of Time representing approximately 63 million years.

Some people – whacky New Agers and many people who should know better – have taken this to mean that the world will end. The fact that the end of the Mayan Long count ends on or near the Winter Solstice adds much more significance to people who seem to think there’s some kind of ‘supernatural magic’ in the revolution of the Earth around the Sun.

What I can’t understand is why people think the Maya had more of an ability to see into the future than any one else. The Unarians thought aliens would invade Earth in 2001. Didn’t happen. The Concerned Christians cult believed an earthquake would wipe Denver off the map in 1998. Didn’t happen. The Third Reich was supposed to have lasted 1,000 years. Didn’t happen…

Or why not believe the Lord’s Witnesses who believe the world will end on the 21st of March this year? (update: didn’t happen) Some guy named Harold Camping has written a book which clearly states that the Bible predicts the end of the world to be in 2011 (update: didn’t happen). Why not believe him? Why not believe that the end of the world will happen sometime between the first of March and the first of April THIS YEAR, when the world’s population reaches 6.66 billion??! (update:… you get the idea)

When it’s pointed out to believers in Mayan prophecy that they sound ‘whacky’ they will often say, ‘It won’t be the end of the whole world, just a monumental change!’ I’d say that there have have been all kinds of monumental changes recently – the discovery of penecillin was pretty world changing. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was pretty monumental. The Moon landings were one small step off our planet for the very first time. I’d say that changed things pretty significantly. Hell, even Live Aid changed the way we think about the less fortunate in the world.

Between the end of the Mayan civilization and now there have been HUNDREDS of massively monumental changes- wars, disasters, famines which have wiped out millions upon millions of people… still the world goes on and those events purely become our history. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why would the Mayan calendar have any more significance than this graphic from the Long Now Foundation?

Do you think in just under 8,000 years from now some people will find this and predict the “end of the world” in the year 12,000 CE because of the “mysteries of the Long Now chart”? Think scholars will talk about how the Long Now believed the beginning of Our Time was 8,000 BCE and that the world would end after 20,000 years? Why wouldn’t they? It states that pretty clearly, doesn’t it?

I’m afraid that anyone who believes there is any deep significance in Mayan Prophecy is quite clearly incapable of finding joy and wonder in the real world and instead insists on creating stories which are based on fear, negativity, insecurity and self-loathing. Seriously, you can’t predict the end of the world *and* love Yourself, Humanity and the Universe, can you?

Sad really.

(Note: I must thank Adrian Pegg for inspiring the title of this post. :)

**EDIT** 31.08.08
Here is my husband talking about this whilst filming his new documentary on Time.

**Update** 1 May 2009
I am closing comments on this post now. I am 4 weeks away from having my baby and I really can’t be bothered deleting any more of the idiocy that people are posting in the comments. I’ve no time for dumb people right now. Sorry. Find somewhere else to spread your silly thoughts. Thanks!

Comments
154 Responses to “Apocalympics 2012 – Mayan “Prophecy””
  1. At the risk of gaining yet more personal fatwahs against me I must add my voice to the collective cry for sanity and reason. Gia a great post though I might expect nothing less. its like listening to the various “End Times” and “Rapture” Ministries of Bill Subritzky.

    You can spend an awful lot of time worrying about tomorrow and decrying the efforts of those who pull at the oars of progress on the view that someday soon we are all going over the waterfall of the end of the world.

    We need more reasoned and sensible comments in a time which seems to be lending more credibility ( no matter how poorly implemented ) to inane “prophecies” than to considered and observed science.

    Thanks again for the more intelligent read.

    Nik

  2. toby says:

    It’s odd how ancient priests and modern fortune-tellers can predict the future of humanity and yet they can’t see their own tomorrow. But it’s even more remarkable that people need to believe this nonsense.

    And I don’t understand why the wonders of science and the natural world have to be ascribed to deities. Of course, it’s been a useful tool, used by the arrogant to control the ignorant, throughout history but we’re living in the 21st century; why do people still seek easy answers and allow themselves to be brainwashed.

    You are an island of reason in an ocean of stupidity.

  3. Nick says:

    I’m still laughing after reading this post. I urge you to hold on, there is still time for those other “end time scenarios” you mentioned to gain popularity, or at least a place on the New York Time’s Best Seller list!
    And if people in the (what 121st Century) are anything like they are now, then yes someone will interpret the Long Now to mean that the world indeed is coming to an end.

  4. PsyberDave says:

    I like how the Long Now Foundation issues memberships by the month. Now that’s irony.

    https://secure.longnow.org/members/

  5. rob says:

    Actually something notable is happening in 2011-12.

    “This week researchers announced that a storm is coming–the most intense solar maximum in fifty years. The prediction comes from a team led by Mausumi Dikpati of the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR). “The next sunspot cycle will be 30% to 50% stronger than the previous one,” she says. If correct, the years ahead could produce a burst of solar activity second only to the historic Solar Max of 1958.”
    –Nasa
    http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/10mar_stormwarning.htm

    no worries.. it’ll probably do nothing more than limit our cell phone reception for a day.

    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” – Bertram Russell

    who knows..

    btw Sir Isaac Newton predicted the world will end 2060…

  6. giagia says:

    Rob, because I worked on Sunshine Ive spent the past two years learning about Space Weather. I’d recommend Space Weather and Solar Cycle 24 (current solar cycle) for some very useful information.

    The more and more we rely on satellites etc, the more impact solar weather has on us. You’re right our phones might be fucked and it could disrupt power and communications generally, but end the world? Nope.

  7. brianeisley says:

    Well, there is one interesting astronomical phenomenon that will apparently happen on 12/21/12: when the sun rises on that day, as seen from Central America, it will be in the direction of Sagittarius A–at the exact center of the galaxy.

    While the Mayans deserve credit for figuring this out, as well as all the rest of their marvelous astronomy, none of this means their mythology is valid.

    Now, I do think that some very interesting things are happening with the rate of our technological progress. And, as an SF fan, I’m enthralled with the idea of the Singularity. I recognize the attractiveness of the whole 2012 thing as a tie-in to this. But no matter how strongly somebody believes in it, that doesn’t make it real.

    I’m constantly amazed and infuriated by New Agers who look to science for justification of their beliefs, but know nothing about how science operates. They usually end up misusing scientific principles as metaphors in areas where they simply don’t apply, e.g., quantum uncertainty ==> “we create our own reality”. (Witness all the crap in “What The Bleep Do We Know”.) They think they’re so enlightened, when in reality they’re as narrow-minded as any creationist.

    I do have a very strong mystic streak in me, and I’m attracted to a lot of alternative spirituality–but I absolutely refuse to give up scientific rigor in areas where it applies. If the scientific method CAN be applied to something, then it MUST.

  8. giagia says:

    Brianeisley,

    I think it’s perfectly possible to be ‘spiritual’ yet still remain grounded in reality. If you think about the idea behind ‘spirituality’, it’s about being ‘connected’ to the Universe (though some might choose to call that God). It’s about seeing yourself in all people and all people in yourself. It’s about trying to make the world a better place for everyone. None of those things clash with ‘science’… and in fact, if pushed, I might say that ‘science’ is the ONLY way you can truly achieve those things as it forces you to act beyond your emotions- not *without* emotions, but beyond them.

    And, the Singularity won’t happen in 2012. I’ve always heard it’ll be 2030-something. I’m equally thrilled by the idea and terrified… as long as AI are programmed with ‘friendliness‘ though we might be OK… :)

  9. brianeisley says:

    Well, I don’t care when the Singularity happens, as long as it’s within my lifetime. Which it probably will be, if it happens at all.

    As far as being both spiritual and scientific, I completely agree. I’m a practicing Buddhist, and one thing that’s always impressed me about Buddhism is that, at its core, it generally avoids making supernatural claims. (Although different cultures have tacked on lots of their own mythological baggage, particularly reincarnation.) And the Buddha insisted that his teachings should be constantly tested, so there’s usually a healthy respect for the scientific method.

    Carl Sagan once asked the Dalai Lama what would happen if science were to conclusively disprove some major tenet of Tibetan Buddhism, such as reincarnation. The Dalai Lama surprised Sagan by saying that in that case, Buddhism would have to change… but then he added that it would be difficult to disprove reincarnation. :-)

  10. jasmine says:

    Your post reminded me of a Robert A. Heinlein story called “Year of the Jackpot”. It was about a mathematician- properly, a statistician engaged in the study of natural cycles, biorhythms if you will. He determines that at one particular date in the near future, all the cycles will come to their maxima or minima at the same time.

    Anyway, a number of increasingly unlikely things start happening and the story comes to a sudden- and somewhat chilling- conclusion. Check it out, if you can- it’s one of the excellent shorts in “The Menace From Earth”, a lovely collection of pulpy goodness.

  11. Ralph says:

    Prohecies don’t scare me, but the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN sure does! Something about atoms traveling close to light speed to collide with each other just doesn’t sound to pleasing.

    What I like to know is how these scientists think they can contain the power of the Big Bang in that machine? They can’t predict what will happen, but are willing to put the planet at risk to find out so they can scream at the top of their lungs “look what we did!” Funny how they can’t explain why the LHC is safe like they say, just the fact they have Ph.D’s, so we have to take their word.

    That damn machine wont solve the world’s problems if it doesn’t evaporate it. The environment will still be going to hell, people still be dying of diseases, starving, while the greedy start wars for their own personal gain.

  12. Tom Reynolds says:

    I think it’s because people like to think that the end of the world will come in their life-time. The egotistical thought that *they* will be there to see it, that *they* will be the last people on earth.

    Also, letting slip my geek credentials, the Role Playing Game ‘Shadowrun’ had the 2012 Mayan date as the day that magic returned to a technological world.

    As for me – 2012 is when my patch of the world goes nuts, and my workload leaps through the roof. So, yes, for me it’ll be apocalyptic.

  13. giagia says:

    Ralph, first they aren’t colliding atoms, they are colliding protons – one of the things that make up atoms. Just to give you an idea of how small they are: (via BNL):”Let’s start by imagining an enlarged atom, magnifying it millions of times until it fills the distance from the Earth to the moon. That’s a massive atom — 10,000,000,000 inches across. Now, how wide would the nucleus be on this scale? About 10,000 inches, the length of a golf course. So, how big would a proton be? You guessed it — about as big as a football field (1,000 inches). In measuring the size of a proton in an earth-sized atom, we’ve gone from the distance between the Earth and moon, down to one football field. And at this scale, a quark would be about the size of a mere golf ball (approximately one inch wide).

    And just so you get an idea of how small an atom is, they are between .1 to .5 nanometers. A nanometer is one billionth of a meter. Just to understand what a billion is have a look here.

    So, they are colliding things which are infinitesimally small. When they get sped up to 99.9999% the speed of light, their mass increases by several thousand times. That would be a big deal if it was you or me, but even 7000 times the mass of a proton is not a whole hell of a lot.

    The energy the proton beam carries is similar to that of an aircraft carrier traveling at 30 miles per hour but focussed into a beam about half a millimeter across.

    The reason why they use the ‘Big Bang’ analogy is because the energies the collisions carry are similar to the energy density found at the Big Bang (that is take the energy of an aircraft carrier traveling at 30 mph and condense it into a space half a mm across and you’ll get an energy density which is very high.)

    There is not *reaction* happening at CERN, merely an *interaction*.

    Just to get an idea of the engineering and technical skill and accuracy required to collide protons, get a friend and some M&Ms, stand across from one another in a gymnasium and throw the M&Ms at each other and try to collide them. That’s considerably easier than what they are doing at the LHC.

  14. Jim says:

    Gia, I wish these scientist were just tossing M&M’s.
    Why can’t they study the present instead of risking the planet to learn the past?

    CERN published articles that the LHC could create micro black holes at the rate of one per second, but state that we don’t need to worry, because a theoretical (Hawking radiation) will prevent them from destroying the world. A freakin’ theoretical! How can you be comfortable with that?

    The existence of Hawking radiation has never been observed, nor are there currently viable experimental tests which would allow it to be observed. Hence there is still some theoretical dispute over whether Hawking radiation actually exists.

    But you go on routing for CERN, Gia. I just wish I was a better father with my kids the last 4 years, but from here on out I’m gona be the best until the end.

  15. giagia says:

    I’m glad you’ve decided to be a good father to your kids and hope that you continue to feel that way about them for the next 50-80 years of your life.

    I will also point out that if the microscopic black holes *are* observed, not only will they be completely safe, but it will mean we live in a universe with MORE than 4 dimensions (3 spacial dimensions, plus time). THAT will, indeed, destroy loads of things (our previous understanding of the universe and how it was created for a start), but it won’t destroy *us*.

  16. Ralph says:

    Gia, I know this is your blog, but to out a writers status who’s not harassing you is messed up. You probably equate him with Dumbgirl because where he’s at, when he might be smarter than you.

    A study by CERN to me carries as much weight as BushCo. investigating itself for abuse. No one cares what the results will be if they don’t end all life because it wont solve any real world problems.

  17. giagia says:

    Ralph,

    Do you realise that the only reason you are able to talk to me at the moment is because of something developed for the LAST experiment at CERN? One young physicist decided to create an easy way of allowing physicists to read and reference each others’ work. You know what he called it?

    The World Wide Web.

    Any idea of the other things that have come out of ‘blue skies’ physics research? Medical imagining scans. PET scans. DVD players. CD players. Just to name a few.

    So, sure maybe the WWW, DVD players and CD players didn’t solve any *problems* per se, but I’d say the medical advancements alone have been pretty useful to many people. What do you think?

    Of course, if you choose to continue to NOT believe in science then I invite you to just stop using the web, watching films, listening to music and getting medical treatments. I just don’t see how you can have it both ways. These things don’t exist because of magic, you know.

    So what will it be? I guess if I never hear from you again it will mean that you’ve decided NOT to accept science. And that’s fair enough.

  18. Ralph says:

    Gia, I accept science, and I know the story about the internet. AL GORE INVENTED IT!

    Just kidding, but I do know where it originated from. And when I first mentioned atoms, I ment to write protons, but forgot while trying to get my thoughts out.

    Look, the only problem I have with science right now, well besides the government trying to shove food from cloned animals down our throats, is the LHC. And if a theoretical like Jim mentioned above, and what I read all over the internet (Thank you CERN), is the only thing that will keep us from blowing up the planet, then it’s not worth running this machine to answer a few simple questions.

    The conditions in orbit is way different than the conditions underground, so for CERN to say it’s safe to bash protons at almost light speed because of a process discovered by Stephen Hawking, not mentioning it’s just a theoretical since it was never actually witnessed, is insane!

    CERN – “Black holes lose matter through the emission of energy via a process discovered by Stephen Hawking.”

    There’s more to the paragraph where that came from, but they’re just telling us what they want us to know, not mentioning Hawking Radiation is theoretical, so they can operate that machine in May. Now if they were to state “Black holes lose matter through the emission of energy via a theoretical by Stephen Hawking.” no one would have let them built that machine in the first place.

    I know you support CERN, so I can rule out you posting about Hawking Radiation as a blog entry, arguments on both sides, mentioning HR is a theoretical, minus any insults. I’m sure Brian can handle it, or would he be against it?

  19. giagia says:

    I won’t post about Hawking Radiation because it goes beyond my understanding. See, unlike a lot of other people on teh internets I don’t really like writing about things I don’t completely understand. I think it’s irresponsible to do so.

    What I do know is that the black holes they could produce could ALREADY be being produced by Cosmic Rays, because Cosmic Rays collide at higher energies than they will create at the LHC. So, the universe has been around for 13.7 billion years, Cosmic Rays for most of that time, billions, trillions, gazillions (technical term) of them interacting with billions, trillion, gazillions of other particles at high energies…. and we are still here. What do *you* think the chances are of there being a danger at the LHC? :)

    Something I read about Cosmic Rays the other day: the Apollo astronauts reported seeing flashes of bright light even when they closed their eyes. It’s suspected that their eyes were getting hit with Cosmic Rays which made them ‘see’ the light. Far fewer Cosmic Rays reach the ground because they collide with particles in our atmosphere, but if you ever get a chance to see a Cosmic Ray detector, you’ll see that they are *constantly* hitting the ground… and you.

  20. Jim says:

    Ralph, stop, just stop. You know how IRRESPONSIBLE you are right now? Get off TEH INTERNETS!

    Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

    Gia: And, Jim, please tell me what your reaction would be if someone said that all military people are murdering, raping idiots whose main aim in life is to kill as many people as possible and start as many wars as possible? Would you think they had no clue what they were talking about, were spouting idiocies and that their continuing to say those things was detrimental to the work the military does? Just wondering.

  21. Ralph says:

    Irresponsible? Gia, funny how you know so much about the LHC, but nothing about the one little detail, a theoretical one that everyone at CERN states will keep us safe. You’re married to Brian Cox, I’m sure he has the answers if you don’t already know, or he can even post a response here.

    Like Brian stated in a CERN video, to get answers via LHC to some simple questions, I got an answer over the internet (Thank you CERN) to my simple question discovering Hawking Radiation is theoretical, but during my research the world wasn’t at risk of annihilation. Now the people at CERN want so smash protons to get there answers at almost light speed, knowing fully well that Hawking Radiation is theoretical, the one thing they state will protect us which they’re not 100% sure about, putting the world at risk. Now if that’s not irresponsible, I don’t know what is.

    Jim, I hope you don’t mind me answering Gia’s question, yes it’s irresponsible if someone states awful things about members in the military because of a few bad apples. But we know where you’re going with this, calling us idiots, even though like Brian we did the research to get our answers, but intelligently, safely, not just spouting crap off the top of our heads.

    Gia, since you asked a question, could you answer mines? Is Hawking Radiation theoretical? Has anyone witnessed it happen in full glory, and not just went along with this guess? Just to remind you, and no offense, you’re married to Brian Cox. I don’t mind if he helps you with the answers, that’s unless you both afraid to rock the boat at CERN. If you don’t respond, it answers my question, but if you do, great, just don’t beat around the bush like a politician.

    Gia: I have told you: I don’t understand enough about Hawking Radiation to answer. Do you understand that? Can you understand that if someone doesn’t understand something that it isn’t correct to talk about it with any kind of authority? If I don’t understand it, what makes you think you do?

  22. Ralph says:

    Gia, I think I know enough, but wont comment on it any further in this post.

    Gia: Good for you. Now Brian had a question for you: What makes you believe that the scientists in CERN can actually make black holes? Do you believe that because some scientists have said they could? If you believe them when they say that, then why not believe them when they say that if the black holes are made they will dissipate immediately? Why believe one thing, but not the other?

  23. Jim says:

    Gia, Brian asked these questions? Since this is directed at Ralph, I’m saving my 2 cents.

    Good luck!

  24. NJ says:

    This is my first time posting here, and I’d like to thank you for an insightful article on the 2012 end of the world nonsense.

    Anyway, on the Mayan calendar topic, I’ve studied up on it, being a skeptic and all, and found that there isn’t actually anything about the end of the world mentioned by the Mayans, just the “end of an age” or something along those lines, I don’t personally believe much will change beyond the norm, but I don’t doubt they believed that it would be a “new age”

    On the CERN topic, some of you keep throwing around the word “theoretical” like it means that they don’t know anything. Isn’t theory the whole basis of science, and generally, in the scientific world, a theory is heavily backed up before becoming a theory. You can’t just say that “the sky is green and neptune is made out of sugar” and call it a theory, that’s a hypothesis. Hypothesize is also a word. It would also be more appropriate, if the theory of HR were a hypothesis.

    Just my two cents.

    Thank you

  25. Vagelford says:

    Ralph, you really don’t need to worry, since mini black holes are theoretical objects too. Even more theoretical than hawking radiation since they need extra dimensions which are also theoretical. And as Gia pointed out, the cosmic rays are so energetic that if possible they are already producing mini black holes on earth for many billions of years.

    Btw, even if a mini black hole doesn’t evaporate it’s cross section for absorbing any other particles (the probability) is so small that with the assumed rates of mini black hole production at LHC, the earth will be in danger in a time in the future which is many times the age of the universe (I don’t remember the numbers exactly).

    I should point out that there is a possible experimental confirmation of a classical analogue of hawking radiation. The details can be found at gr-qc:0711.4767

  26. Dark Jaguar says:

    Yeah, it’s all really silly. I will say that your last statement of not being able to predict the end of the world AND love yourself and humanity really only applies if someone is convinced of the end of the world out of faith, out of some need to believe it outside evidence.

    If one thinks so based on evidence, I would just call that being a realist and one could still love themselves couldn’t they? Mind you, the only end of the world certain prediction scientific evidence can make is the billions of years from now the sun will destroy Earth as it dies sort.

  27. Nihilodei says:

    It appears i arrive late for these slightly twisted arguments that leap into what appear to be fairly obvious blogs.

    I cant understand any antipathy to CERN. The technological outputs are already manifest and will outweigh (monetarily) its inputs. It is the greatest experiment to be conducted. The type of investigation means that result from this fundamental work will be as “mind blowing” as the LHC itself.

    Its not a tool that begs some moral criticism as recorded above.

    Relating someones antipathy to genetically modified foods to the CERN series of experiments is an indication that there is a deep distrust of science amongst your respondents.

    I fear that this is possibly far wider ranging than just here.

    I am glad the option to go to a non technological world is still an option. It starts with just turning the computer off, walking to the airport and getting a ticket to some sub Saharan state. On arrival, remove all clothes and start grubbing for bits of food from the country side.

    You cant have it both ways!

  28. Yoshi_3up says:

    Hey Gia, did you make up that 6.66 billion habitants?

  29. giagia says:

    Yoshi- do you mean the idea that the world will end when we hit that population? Well, I did in my own mind, but I just had a look and other people had thought of it, too!!

  30. Yoshi_3up says:

    Oh no! I noticed that the day when the Lord’s Witnesses are predicting the end of the world, might match the day when the population hits 6.66 billion! Stop worrying about 2012, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

    Back on topic, Gia, excellent post. Nice, short, and to the point. But let’s face it. When 21/12/2012 gets nearer and nearer, this “We’re all going to die” mumbo-jumbo is going to be everywhere, the news stations, the streets, EVERYWHERE. Just like 6/6/6 or Y2K.

  31. cardoso says:

    Your last pragraph is pure (mayan) gold.

    I feel very sorry for people who can’t realize how wonderful the Universe is, and want so much to jump out of it.

    The end of the world is a fact, it WILL happen, sooner or later, but there’s nothing magic about a star becoming nova.

  32. Tier3 says:

    This was an alright post. Though there’s MUCH MUCH MORE of this crap to debunk. I know if I was a physicist, biochemist, or astronomer I’d have a FIELD day with this shit! (Or a field year? LOL).
    This statement rang very true to me: “stories which are based on fear, negativity, insecurity and self-loathing. Seriously, you can’t predict the end of the world *and* love Yourself, Humanity and the Universe, can you?”

    It reminds me of a friend who believes Aliens have conquered us from planet X, but thinks the moon landing was a hoax. This to me is very anti-human and pessimistic about what we have and our potential as a species. It’s no different from Christian perspectives of the Apocalypse.

  33. Fred I. White says:

    Gia,

    Off topic, but the astronauts’ flashes of light are but one example of the fact that the human sensorium is more sensitive than many realize.

    Your nose can detect a single molecule of mercaptan, the smelly stuff they put in gas to warn of leaks. The eye can detect the impact of a single photon. It can also see a black 12-inch square against a light background at a distance of one mile.

  34. Jillian Prender says:

    Excellent read. :) Reminds me of the Aesop fable where…”there once was an old astronomer. He spent all of his days with his long nose in a book, studying the stars and galaxies. All night he would walk the woods and the all lands with his wise old eyes staring at the skies. One particular night he tripped and fell into a crumbling well because he wasn’t looking ahead.

  35. i_believe says:

    take i look at this! I;ve cracked it! I’ts the Einstein- Aztec Calendar – Doomsday Connection

    http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/779/einsteintonguexo3.jpg

  36. Richard says:

    No no, you’ve missed the point, Gia: That the Mayans predicted, almost two thousand years ago, that our sun will be at the galactic center on that date, on which they based their SOLAR and lunar calendars. Everything lines up that day, like a cosmic eclipse! People do have a tendency to lay it on a bit thick, but after you’ve canned the conspiracists the question everyone’s asking has enormous consequences: If a culture had accomplishments in mathematics and astronomy that rival our own, what else did they know? A society this on top of it would have plenty to say about a number of other topics scientific, cultural, or otherwise. And anyways, if the world DOES end, we can all tell our grandchildren that we were the first and the only generation ever to witness the whole of the earth explode into a gigantic ball of flames.

  37. giagia says:

    Richard, do you know, for certain, that the Sun will be at the galactic centre? I’ve heard so many different plausible answers, but none that have quite stuck.

    If you have any links etc, please let me know!

    And, I won’t have grandkids by 2012… At least I hope not, my son will be 16, so I guess there’s always a chance… :-/

  38. Yoshi_3up says:

    Aaaaaand the 6.66 billion prophecy goes down in flames.

  39. mitchell porter says:

    Quoting myself (recent email):

    “Out of all the hooey constituting modern 2012-ism, I think the one reasonable idea is that the precession did play a part in determining the structure of the Long Count calendar, and in particular the anticipation that the solstice sun would one day be where it is now. “Galactic center” is a modern concept, but even to the naked eye that region of the sky is distinctive. So far as I can tell there is no objective astronomical alignment which occurs only in 2012 or is strictly maximized in 2012, but the solstice sun spends several decades in the general vicinity of that distinctive region. If one could make the case (i) that Mayan astronomers could have discovered the precession (ii) that they had reason to regard that portion of Sagittarius as significant or distinctive, then one would actually have an explanation for why a world-age was imagined to be ending about now, rather than in 1000 AD or 3000 AD.

    “I must say that I found all this in the writings of John Major Jenkins, who is a Maya-inspired New Ager who wishes to establish that 2012, specifically, does have objective precessional significance on these grounds, and not just, say, the period 1950-2050. I do not think he makes the case for 2012. But he does say interesting things about the “great” or “dark” rift in the Milky Way, as being the naked-eye phenomenon to which a cosmological significance might have been attached, e.g. as being a cosmic portal of sorts. I haven’t attempted to establish how much sense that makes as a speculation about ancient Mayan cosmology.”

  40. Mr Eamcat says:

    all extremely interesting readingI must say.

    myself, i’m intrigued by the notion of the singularity and wonder if it will in fact tie in with the end of the current age of mankind. wouldn’t it be wonderful if it all happened in 2012? Maybe a nano ehnanced human will flip the CERN switch and cause it all him/herself – how poetic that would be! Whether it happens or not, lets hope that life after 2012 is better for everyone on the planet.

  41. giagia says:

    Well, since CERN is being turned on this summer, I doubt we’ll have ‘nano enhanced humans’ by then. Though perhaps some other type of cyborg could do it – one with a pacemaker or a cochlear implant perhaps.

    It’s funny how no one thinks those kinds of technologically enhanced humans are bad… So is it OK to have technology help you try and be ‘normal’, but not OK to have technology help you try and be ‘better than normal’?

    Funny world.

  42. JP says:

    hey guys, my name is JP and i am 20 years old and just had a baby, i would like to say thank you for the ppl who commented against 12/21/2012. i saw a special on discovery about it like a year ago and ever since then my stomach has been in knotts. thank you for showing me truth and evidence that this will not happen, i am getting married this summer and hopefully going to try for another baby after that, i wouldnt do that, however, if i thought the end was that near, no need to bring another child into that…

    thanks again,
    and i know this sounds corny, but,
    now i can sleep again

  43. Karen says:

    I agree with JP..I have been learning about Niribu, and 2012 for many months now, and it is like a breath of fresh air to hear that it is possible that the end is not coming. Thank you all for your input…Those of us who are fearful must find this very consoling.

  44. Mike M says:

    Good logic. If the Jesuits had not burned the equivalent of the ancient Library of Alexandria of Mayan culture, maybe the four books left and various stone markings could be supplemented to shed real and complex meaning onto an extinct culture. Instead spec history goes on as fact on cable TV.

    Maybe the Mayans just ran out of storage space on paper or stone. They obviously did not survive long enough to update and change the storage tape and renew a finate count calendar system. If you don’t keep up your civilization, don’t expect me to either.

    I read an article twenty odd years ago, in I think Scientific American, that the Maya broke up in two closely related time periods. That theory or basic reason for their decline was that the middle class got tired of paying taxes and just went native and into the jungle. As good an explanation as any for their decline.

  45. P.K. says:

    Hi,
    It may be possible that world will be finished by 2012, but I can strogly say, world will finish in 2060 as sir Newton said before 1727. Sir Newton’s statements was based on pratical who has given so many formulas to us to move ahead. Inspite of that we don’t know abt other planet’s life and still we are fighting to know thie life. At last, I want to say one thing, If we faith on GOD, it means, world will no finish, if yes then there is no GOD in the world.

    P.K.

  46. giagia says:

    “If we faith on GOD, it means, world will no finish, if yes then there is no GOD in the world.”

    That statement is kind of like saying, ‘If the Sun rises tomorrow morning then there is a God, if it doesn’t, there’s no God.’ Not a real test, is it?

    Try something a bit more difficult like, “if World Hunger is ended completely by tomorrow morning, then there is a God, if not, there isn’t a God”… If that happened, if I woke up tomorrow and ALL of the world’s hungry were miraculously given enough food to live long, happy and healthy lives, then I’d believe there was a God.

    Go on, ask him for that. It’s a good thing to ask for…

  47. Kevin says:

    Nice article Gia. First of all, thanks for dropping by my site. Conversations such as this one which started with the Mayans and ended up interlinked with faith, prohecies, God etc are always contentious to say the least. But interesting !
    I find it amazing that people believe in an end..a date in time that some calamity is going to happen, whether it be based on predictions of a lost culture or from the Book of Revelations or any of the other hocus pocus we are all bombarded with on a daily basis. If people want to believe in an end, then believe in the FACT that this planet will at some point be consumed by our sun as it turns into a red giant and subsequently will go through the stages of a dying star. Believe that it is possible for an asteroid to cause another extinction. Believe that it is possible for any individual to have a personal calamity in their life at any moment of the day or night which results in a termination of life whther their own or others. I prefer to believe in these given that scientific method would indicate that since they have happened before, they will probably happen again.

    However; while I accept the probability is high for some of these events, I choose to not dwell on it. Just as I choose to ignore most faiths except for personal interest in what makes other people tick and why a lot of people think there is no purpose in life without belief in a god of some kind. But thats a whole other topic.

    My mantra: Wake up every day and look for the joys in life. The quirkiness of friends, the amazing way that life can slap you upside of the arse in one moment and then dump you in a bed of roses the next. The insanity of deja vu, the mystery of chemistry between people and yes, the vast differences across individuals of the definition or scale of rational versus irrational and the extremes on the irrational side. Revel in the curious and try to stay as close as you can to the wonder we had as children figuring out something new. That’s what keeps us young :o)

    Anyway, I’ll be checking your blog out more often, interesting stuff.

  48. Annie says:

    If the Maya are smart enough to “predict the end of the world”, how come they didn’t see their own doom?
    Just another fascinating and wild and charlatanistic pseudoscience to make money off of fertile sheeple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  49. Steph says:

    Well, I am looking for ways NOT to feel like 2012 might be significant. It’s not just that someone predicted it, as there are many psychos predicting things….it’s that the Mayans were extremely accurate with their calenders and examination of our galaxy. The scariest part is that their calculations put the sun in the center of our glaxy in 2012 (and as far as I’ve heard, science supports that), and scientists are convinced there’s a massive black hole in the center of our galaxy. Now, what has me personally worried, is that for the past five years or so (starting at age 18), I’ve been plagued with dreams about black holes and catastrophic celectial events. Things I didn’t used to even consider at that age. In fact, I used to love astronomy, but the dreams have made me fear it, not the other way around. So, do I believe we’ll all be destroyed in 2012? I don’t really know, I’m hoping not, but for me personally, it makes more sense than these other doom and gloom dates…Not to mention I have heard it would take about 20 yrs to truly reach whatever it is that’s going to happen, and that just so happens to also be a time when a global killer meteor is going to be hanging around…it seems like things may just be coming together after all, or maybe they are just paranoid coincidences.

  50. Steph says:

    keep in mind the collapse of a civilization doesn’t mean the people in it were stupid, just their governments.

  51. giagia says:

    Steph,

    1. As I understand it (and go ask Phil Plait to confirm this), our Sun covers the galactic centre at that time of the year *every* year. There’s nothing different about 2012.

    2. We think there are black holes ALL OVER the Universe, not just at the centre of our galaxy.

    3. If I were you, I’d worry more about things like ‘governments cutting funding for space exploration and research which will mean we don’t have the understanding or expertise to attempt to protect ourselves from something like a massive asteroid impact WHEN it happens’ (note: not ‘if’).

    4. You will die. Humanity will end. The Sun will die. The Universe will fizzle out. Accept all of those things first (there isn’t anything you can do about any of them anyway) and THEN use your short and wondrous time here to try and add ‘good’ rather than ‘negativity’ and ‘fear’. Why? Why not?

  52. TmOnEy says:

    Yo GIA, read your article, you seem to be a very logical man. I have a plethora of worries about 2012. It keeps me up at night, looking at articles like this one, absorbing as much sensible information that I can. The 2012 notion is very intimidating; however, when looked upon from your perspective I could at least get a little shut-eye for the night. I’m 22 and was really looking forward to having a normal future, but this has really been messing with my head, like I won’t ever be a father and stuff. I feel unmotivated sometimes when faced with the fact that the end is coming anyway. With the unduly surplus of bullshit on the internet regarding this topic, I like the fact that you say you don’t write about things you really don’t have an understanding for. It is not as much the Mayan calendar as much as it is the culmination of present events such as the ridiculous weather, tsunamis, earthquakes and the disappearance of Bees that is really keeping me up. What is your opinion? It kind of seems that the way the world is now, is a perfect pretense for the whole 2012 scenario. Also, what is your take on Einstein’s pole shift theory that many say will happen when the our Solar System goes through the southern hemisphere of the galactic plane?

    P.S

    To comment on the whole CERN argument, to create black holes capable of destroying the world wouldn’t you need a mass of say, a star? I mean how can they create a black hole if there is no mass that can collapse on itself to create a such puissant gravitational pull?

    Anyway, I know I got alot of questions, I naturally worry too much lol

  53. mitchell porter says:

    Steph (and others):

    The black hole in the center of our galaxy is about 300,000 million million kilometers away, and we are not going to be any closer in 2012. The sun will be lined up with the galactic center as seen from Earth, that’s all. And so far as I can tell it’s only an approximate lining up, and one that persists for several decades.

    In the larger picture it’s all about the 26,000-year rotation in the direction of the Earth’s axis, like a wobbling gyroscope; as well as moving the celestial pole from Polaris to Vega and back again, it changes where in the Earth’s orbit we are when summer or winter starts. And if we are at a different place in the orbit, that means we see the sun against a different part of the zodiac. It seems the Mayans were smart enough to detect the very small changes in the solstice sun’s zodiacal location over the decades, and extrapolated ahead to the point in time when it would arrive at the “dark rift” in Sagittarius. That is a dark region in the middle of the Milky Way’s biggest bulge as seen from Earth, resulting from dark interstellar clouds which lie between us and the galactic center (closer to us).

    To describe it all another way: The Milky Way spiral galaxy has a discus shape, with a bulge in the middle where most of the stars (and that central black hole) are located. We are a long way out in the spiral arms, orbiting that bulge, and somewhere in the foreground are some dark clouds of dust which obscure part of that bulge of stars as seen from Earth. In Earth’s sky, all that translates into the zodiacal river of stars having a widest point with some dark patches. The presumption is that, although the Mayans had nothing like the modern concept of the galaxy or even that the stars are other suns, they could still see that dark patch and calculate that the solstice sun would coincide with it centuries in the future; an event which they would presumably have interpreted according to some animistic cosmology, but no information about such an interpretation appears to survive. Instead, all we have is the Long Count calendar, saying that there is a change of 5000-year-long world ages at the end of 2012. On the modern interpretation, what they were describing is a portion of that 26000-year cycle (the “precession of the equinoxes”); which is also the source of the western astrological ages (e.g. “Age of Aquarius”), incidentally.

    Also, my own investigations so far have revealed that there is nothing special about 2012 specifically, as far as alignment between sun and galactic center is concerned (and of course modern astronomy doesn’t believe such alignments mean anything anyway). There is a period of several decades in which the solstice occurs with the sun roughly in front of the galactic center, but it never gets on top of it, and I don’t think that year is even its closest approach. There is another, once-in-a-century event which does happen in 2012, the second of a pair of “transits of Venus” (the first happened in 2004; this is an alignment which occurs entirely within our own solar system), and the Mayan astronomers would have been able to predict that event to the year as well, so it is possible that for their own cosmological reasons they settled on the day of the solstice sun in the year of the second transit of Venus in the century of the dark-rift alignment as the calendrical endpoint, though that is just my speculation. Another thing to bear in mind, if you wish to think about this independently, is that the exact location of the galactic center is simply not visible to the eye; all the eye can see is the dark rift, which covers a whole region of Sagittarius. The exact galactic center was located only through the 20th-century detection of high-energy radiation from the vicinity of the central black hole.

    So as you can see I have put together a non-magical explanation, in terms of our current understanding of the universe, as to where that 2012 date came from. I suppose a contemporary person could still ask, so what about all this stuff happening in the world? What about the natural disasters, the “earth changes”, the politics, the energy running out, doesn’t it all suggest a change of the ages? And certainly when you come down to Earth, you have to say that this is, objectively, an unusual historical time, technologically, culturally, and in terms of human population. Still, we don’t know how long those conditions will last. We might spend the whole of the 21st century as a crowded planet with an uncertain future, experiencing environmental changes caused by our species. A contemporary rationalist can explain all of that stuff straightforwardly, it all results from the human population boom and the industrialization of the world.

    But can they explain the fact that it’s all happening at the same time as the Mayan change of the ages? It seems you have to either regard it as coincidence, or believe in some neo-astrology according to which even the rhythms of technical discovery on Earth are regulated by the galactic seasons, and there are certainly New Agers who have adopted the latter view. (There is a third possibility, namely that the alchemists and esotericists at the dawn of western science also saw the approach of a new astrological world age – in 2000, if not in 2012 – and that its proximity inspired them in their researches, hastening the arrival of the technological age; that would make it all a purely self-fulfilling prophecy. I don’t quite believe that but I’ll put the idea out there.)

    If we see it as coincidence, then a peculiar and almost tragic perspective is possible. What’s really behind 2012 is a great cosmic cycle that is purely material and has no intrinsic spiritual aspect at all; one of the shorter cycles (26000 years) in a universe full of much larger ones (225 million years for one galactic orbit). The individual human being, meanwhile, generally possessing a lifespan of less than 100 years, is doomed to see only the minutest fraction of these great cosmic motions. Our greatest victory is merely to know about those cycles, an unnatural knowledge given the brevity of our lives and our history. We are just one species which gets to occupy just one planet for a brief time; our ancestors, in the Darwinian struggle, specialized in intelligence, and as a side effect that gave us brains big enough to work all this out, given a few thousand generations. Right now we are struggling with our technologies, with the collision of cultures formerly separated by geographic distance, by the harsh differences between our inherited wishful superstitions and reality. It’s possible that in the end we’ll get those practical things which seem like political utopia for present-day humans, namely world peace and environmental sustainability. But even if we manage that, and I’m sure we can, we will still be facing the cosmic infinity, and the fact that by nature we will only ever get to see a minute fraction of it. Perhaps that will be the unbearable existential situation which motivates the next phase of human culture.

  54. Lauryn says:

    Gia,

    Thank you so much for this wonderfully sensable article. I must admit that this topic has been bothering me since last year when I saw that stupid show on the History Channel “Mayan Doomsday.” Ever since then I’ve been so afraid and paniced thinking about my children never getting a chance to live and not being able to protect them. Thank you again, I’ll finally be able to sleep soundly.

  55. James says:

    Gia: Just a quick one I spotted.

    ‘Humanity will end…The Universe will fizzle out.’

    I don’t see why this needs to be accepted. I know the steady state universe is a more or less dead theory today, but who knows? Future generations may even one day look back and see the big bang theory, and our current understanding of physics, as quaint. Maybe the Universe is infinitely old?

    Even with out current understanding of physics you can ask some scary questions. Is there even any reason why our universe isn’t the result of some quantum fluctuation in a super-sized universe (the result of vacuum energy or some similar principle)? If so, is there any reason why are universe couldn’t have formed of the edge are stupendously large black hole (Hawking radiation gone mad)? And if so, is there any reason why time is not running slow in our universe thanks to the gravity of enormous black hole neighbour? So, 13.8 billion years may simply correlate to one second in a weak gravitational field in the super-sized universe.

    Okay, I’m dreaming a little. But in speaking of black holes, there is the idea that suggests that electrons (and other fundamental particles) are actually black holes! A black hole with the same mass, charge and spin of an electron would seemingly behave like in electron, so who knows maybe it’s true. In which case, if a black hole and all its associated infinities can be so small as to form a point particle, and hence black holes may form part of every single atom in the universe, why couldn’t it work the other way with the universe actually being infinitely small, relative to a speck of dust in the super-sized universe?

    Sleep tight everyone. The end of the universe is but a super-sized vacuum cleaner away. [In other words, you shouldn't pay too much attention to apocalyptic predictions, we REALLY haven't got a clue!]

  56. Alex says:

    We as individual observers each have our own version of the Universe.

    [insert spawning quantum states analogy here]

    Each universe starts when we become an observer of the universe, and each universe ends when we stop observing it.

    [insert collapsing probability function analogy here - although recently it has been shown that this collapse can be reversed - see http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080806140128.htm (insert WTF HOLY SHIT NO FUCKEN WAY comment here)]

    Accordingly, my universe ends when I die.

    Your universe ends when you die.

    So stop worrying about it. Yours will end soon enough. And when it does end, it will be as if it had never started in the first place.

  57. mitchell porter says:

    A comment with respect to ‘reversing the collapse of the wavefunction’:

    What really happens in a quantum measurement (to a first approximation) is not that the wavefunction “collapses”, but that the wavefunction jumps from one waveform to another. What is traditionally described as collapse occurs when the resulting waveform is concentrated into a spike situated at a single point. But the Schrodinger dynamics which apply between measurements immediately cause such a spike to begin spreading out into spatially extended waves again.

    Also, the collapse into a spatially localized spike (a “delta function”, technically) only applies to a measurement of position. A measurement of momentum produces a waveform of homogeneous wavelength; this can be thought of as localization in “wavelength space”.

    The general principle is that for each measurable property, there is a set of wavefunction states which correspond to exact values of that property; when a measurement occurs, the wavefunction of the measured object jumps into one of those “eigenfunctions”, with a probability dependent on the eigenfunction’s contribution to the pre-measurement wavefunction; and between measurements, the wavefunction changes according to the Schrodinger equation.

    Thus the spatially localized waveforms, the delta functions, are the eigenfunctions for the property of position, and during a measurement of position, a wavefunction will collapse to a deltafunction at a particular location with a probability proportional to the magnitude (square of the magnitude, actually) of the pre-measurement wavefunction at that point. You may be able to see that this is the application of the preceding ‘general principle’ to the special case of position.

    In the even broader picture, the dynamics of a quantum measurement is largely reducible to a special case of Schrodinger dynamics, applied to the interaction between the measured object and the measuring device. So you could say that collapse doesn’t happen at all, or only happens relative to the device. The only problem with that perspective is that it never breaks away from a description in terms of probabilities and multiple possibilities (the wavefunction) to actual outcomes – here rather than there, spin up rather than spin down.

    The article about reversing the collapse of the wavefunction specifies that it refers to a “weak measurement”. This is one that doesn’t collapse the wavefunction so much as squeezing it a bit. A measurement is a physical process in which some readout device takes on a value which corresponds accurately to the value in the measured object. In a weak quantum measurement, the average recorded value is the same as the average actual value, but the spread of individual values is much greater, i.e. the correspondence is only weak. So what is happening is that the wavefunction of the measured object is interacting with another object in a way which concentrates it a little around a particular value, then the wavefunction of the second object is subject to a “sharp” measurement which is conveyed to a macroscopically observable situation, and meanwhile, the wavefunction of the first object is squeezed in another way which undoes the effect of the first weak measurement.

    That is the rough intuitive picture that I get, anyway. The details could be a little different. But I hope that makes it a little clearer what’s going on: the wavefunction is being squeezed rather than collapsed, in a way that produces only weakly reliable information, and then it is being pushed back into its previous “shape”.

  58. Dev says:

    Every beginning has an end to it. We need to start doing our Home Work from now in order to be fit in the new beginning. We need to shower love, peace and guide our friends, family and people around us to reach the light. We need to make them realise or think, we are beyond this mind, flesh and bones and that is when we would be merged in Light.
    In Love and Light,
    Marina.

  59. Andrewazoid says:

    These bastards are just getting our hopes up. We have to live in a world where the gods of slavery and money run the show and the people who don’t play with the cruelty ball are scared shitless. I lie awake fantasizing about he day when this shithole collapses. All the imaginative stuff is in 2 dimensions and up for sale while the despicable “join em’ crew will do all they can to slay your spirit and if that fails bring on the black magic medications or death squads. The rumours of this toilet imploding were concocted by the same dick heads that have turned 98% of people into cows to be herded and milked for cashola. People who really enjoy voting and reading the newspaper don’t thing god is gonna pull this place they are like pigs in shit. You don’t have to think or anything just watch t.v.

  60. Jan Piller says:

    … black holes already exist. I put socks into my dryer and they don’t come out again. So far this phenom hasn’t impacted me or my dog.

  61. There’s nothing to be afraid of. Mayans never talked about a doomsday,they was more oriented to some sort of human evolution

  62. Kevin says:

    Out of curiosity I was searching the net to get different perspectives on this 2012 thing. As far as I can see, it’s a great excuse to sell stuff and make money. If you think that the majority of these so called “experts” and “mystics” aren’t doing just that, guess again. The time is ripe folks, SO CASH IN BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!

    I came across this site and I must say that find it amusing how people can become so convinced by their own bullshit. The truth is, no one has a clue. But, if I’m wrong and one of you really does know 100%, positive, for sure, what’s going on than maybe you can give some of these poor people some comfort so they can sleep at night.

    If the world does end, so what? When you consider the Universe is greater than any of us can really comprehend (and don’t kid yourself if you think you can), then loosing one tiny insignificant planet is no big deal in the larger scheme of things. It wouldn’t surprise me if civilizations aren’t wiped out all the time due to circumstances beyond their control. But that is another topic that can be argued til the cows come home…

    Why bother with all this? Why not enjoy what you have now, RIGHT NOW, and stop fretting over what’s to come. You’ll never enjoy a single day of your life from here on out if you’re so convinced you’re not going to be around in a few years. Hell, we’re all going to go at some point. Why worry about it?

  63. Sel says:

    This is similar to the boy who cried wolf. Past does not dictate future. Just because hundred of people said this and this will happen or could happen. and didn’t, does not mean the next hundred people will be entirely wrong. If you end up saying past dictates future, you really live in a narrow minded world.

    Why bother attacking a certain type of people? New Ager’s or what nots. You are not any wiser.

    Oh and the person who said New Agers just look for reasons to justify their beliefs. Yes, some peobably do. But Quantum Physics is very real. And you do create your own reality. If you do not even understand a simple concept like that, than i have no words to say. If someone complimented you saying you look good today at work, you can CHOOSE to precieve it any way you want. You can say, did i not look good yesterday? Or you can say thanks, i do look good. Or any combination! I don’t need “evidence” for realizing this. I feel sorry for the beings that do.

    It really gets to me when i hear so many wannabe Bhuddists who claim they are a practicing bhuddist. Just because you believe in peace, and read about bhuddism does not mean you actually fully practice it. There is so much depth to this, there are hidden secrets, only passed down to the rightous people, that you will never read in books.
    To even begin to understand anything from the East, you have to realize, it is not like the West, where information is shared. The Eastern Culture in the past was such, of clans and secret societies. That is why, the Bhuddism you see today, is the stripped, westernized version, just like 99.99% of yoga you see today. Its stripped of its meaning.

    Lastly, if you only look to critique another, you will never find truth. To find truth, you need intention to finding truth. Only then you will find it.

  64. giagia says:

    Sel,

    What the hell are you on about?

  65. Alex says:

    2012 is the new Y2K (or the old Y2K?)

    They probably just ran out of space on the stone they were carving on…or they realized, damn that’s way into the future…that’s good enough…I’m tired, I’ll stop now.

    disclaimer – I know nothing about the mayans.

    To Sel:
    I see your point. As an Asian, I totally agree that there are way too many “westerners” who suffer from asian fetish.

  66. Blue Monkey says:

    **edited by Gia**

    If you keep using my blog to advertise your ridiculous site I will ban your IP. I’ve deleted it once. I do not want it here.

    Thanks

  67. Blue Monkey says:

    ok sorry, didn’t realize it was deleted and unwanted, never meant to disrespect the privacy of your blog.
    please accept with understand.

    *Apology accepted. I just don’t want any of that mumbo-jumbo rubbish here. Thanks- gia*

  68. Adam Y says:

    I’m one of these people who seriously worry about these stupid things and i’ve got to say it’s totally put my mind at rest! I’m bookmarking this page and whenever I think about *gloomy voice, flashlight below face* the end of the world, i’ll read this, thank you very much!

  69. Max says:

    Joey,

    What seperates science from religion/spirituality/supernatural is evidence and lack of evidence, respectively. Imagination and rediculous ideas are absolutley required for science to think of new perspectives and then test those perspectives to see if they coincide with nature. But if you’re idea does not coincide with nature then it must be changed or discarded. That’s really all there is to it.

    But if your idea has no evidence, no model that coincides with nature, or even a little intuitive support then what is it? I could just as easily pickup Harry Potter and canonize it into a religion, claiming the only evidence I need is that the book exists and that I subjectively believe it. I could just as easily pickup a Stephen King novel and start believing in monsters because claiming that since they’re in books and TV then they exist. Or I could pickup a physics book, turn to page 1, and calculate how fast a ball would off a rooftop and then go drop that ball.

  70. Max says:

    You’re referring to the scientific method as some agreed-upon standard of thought when in facts it nothing like that. The scientific method is to ONLY make claims when there is evidence for that claim. If there is no evidence then no claim. So my point is that science does not need to disprove the supernatural because there is no evidence for it and thus has no basis to come into the scientific arena. In fact, all those holy books are at the same level as fiction book providing no more evidence-based claims than Harry Potter.

    When religion provides us with a claim that it has evidence for then science will determine it’s validity. But with no evidence it’s all subjective.

  71. Laura Smith says:

    It makes me laugh people that make claims like this.
    Im sure some people just dont want people to be happy.
    Its nice to hear something positive for a change.
    Thankyou very much it is muchly appreciated.
    :D xxx

  72. Laura Smith says:

    I have to say i am one of these people that worry about things like this. I would just like to say thankyou for putting my mind at rest and i shall bookmark this page and the next time i think stupidly about 2012 i shall read this!
    Thankyou

  73. Andy B says:

    Im 22, living a quiet life in the North West UK. I came across the 2012 theory quite some time ago, and still am amazed still at how much there is to this theory. By no means do i want this world to end but i do want change, as do many people around me im sure. I ask myself, is the way we are all living, truly the best way of living? We are born into this life, we believe in the santas and elves and all other crazy festival characters, and at the time we do genuinly believe in them which makes us excited and enjoy the times when we are young and don’t know any different. Then slowly but surley as we get older day by day, we start to realise life isn’t about waiting for old men to come down chimneys or write letters to him about what we would like, its about earning money and spending it faster than it comes in. In certain ways of looking at it, it can be beneficial to civilisations as big as the human race on a whole is, but money we earn, comes from somewhere and somewhere down the line of your £20 note, someone has lost that money and gone into your pocket. Obviously we feel we have earnt it so we spend it “wisely”, But what is wisely?? Do we genuinly believe that it means paying for petrol or using it to buy food? Should we even have to pay for food? I can see why money is the way it is but every single one of us no matter where we are in the world has to live their lives around it. We can do nothing without it. And this is why i believe there needs to be change. Its not fair for governments to make us do the things which if we were living out in the wild would not be seen anywhere on anyones agendas. Life is too short to jus live it for money. 2012 brings a glimmer of hope that maybe something will happen which will bring humanity a realisation that itself is it own destructor and things cannot carry on the way they are going. Yes there are theorys brought forward by many, Nostradamus, The Maya, Einstein, Religeous followers, Geographical anomolies including outer space attacks by either comets, astroids or even the Sumerian belief that Nibiru or planet X will visit us for the first time in 26000yrs because of its massive orbit not only peturbing our own solar system but another one too. Whatever the theory, no one will really know what will happen until it does, but preparation is key to everything. If something was to happen at any stage in out lives would it be too stupid to not be prepared for it?? Preparation is key to everything and we adopt it to help us live our lives to make things easier, All im saying is that, no one can deny the fact that something majorly catastrophic can happen at any given moment and it will be the ones who are prepared that will be the more likely to succeed and live on. This is my 1st ever response to an article like this one and so im hoping that this makes satisfactory reading. :D………….. Peace

  74. boro says:

    for all!!!!!
    Im not a genius ,but I’ve my own beliefs,whats science is saying,or whoever,I dont give a f.shit!!!!!!!!!its all about to imobilize you,give you something crap to read to keep you busy,making sure you ‘ll spend the rest of your days thinking about it.they want you to be another sheep!!!!
    Wake up people!!!!!!!!! we dont need more all this shit!!!! im giving up and giving the best of me to minimize the critical time the humankind is living now,and I think instead losing or times discussing such a bullshit like this,I rather actually do something usefull for who really needs.stop been hipocritics!!ALL WE NEED IS LOVE!!!!!!!!!..

    P.S. (sorry about my english,as it is not my first language)I’m pretty sure you all got the message.

  75. giagia says:

    I think I got the message: You want to remain ignorant.

    Is that it? If not, I’m afraid I’ve no idea what you’re saying.

  76. Max says:

    Boro,

    Ultimatley you can say the same about your beliefs, but you seem to have no problem pursuing them.

  77. boro says:

    giagia,
    at the first time i thought u sounded interesting,but after ur comments,i realised people r all the same in some aspects,if u think im ignorant, its ur opnion,even know u dont know me,kkk.saying wot u said sounded very bad,very ignorant from u,for ur surprise im not that ignorant,i might be in terms of this kind of shit u so interested in,i dont have to mbe expert in shit to know i cant it it!!!!!!!!!

  78. giagia says:

    Again, I’m fairly clueless about what you’re trying to say. Are you saying: I don’t know anything about science, but I do know that I think it’s all wrong?

    If that’s correct, then willingly CHOOSING to not learn anything about science at all and instead relying upon superstition or ‘ancient wisdom’ or whatever is pretty much the definition of ignorance.

    If that ISN’T what you’re trying to say, then I’m sorry, it’s just not coming through in the translation.

  79. boro says:

    giagia.
    i dont think i should know about f..astronomy,or astrology,or wotever u call it,to be called “inteligent”or “intelectual”.kkk.if it is the right word 4u. people like u can still doing the same things for milleniuns.first i would like to live here in harmony instead fuck it up before fuck off to somewhere else unknow.been inteligent or wotever,means living in this world in full,every second as it is the last second in ur life,seen the beauty in the small things,(otherwise i wouldnt be able to see the whole thing”universe”).i think we should be more realistic and worrie more about things we can actually resolve,instead waste time thinking,ooohhhhhhh is it the end of the world?when it comes it will be the right time,so never mind,u cant do much about it!!or can u?i dont have to be expert on shit to know i cant eat it!!

  80. John says:

    This is a great site! Nearly everyone can spell, which is always encouraging. The 2012 giveaway? The plethora of disasters – unrelated, until now: I see an earth hit by a meteor glancing off Planet X hitting a crust shifted by polarities reversed by the solar alignment. The I Ching’s the sound of the till closing.

  81. boro says:

    giagia
    ok ,i try again,wot i want to say is ,if u like science,fair enough,i like it too,but i think we should sort or home problems out first,then go further,i believe when the time comes it will be the right time so dont worrie we cant do much about it,or can u?and im pretty sure we will be wiped out,b4 our world,so nevermind…..

  82. boro says:

    john
    u so fucking funny!kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk,for ur knowledge,u all who the english is the first language has a great percentage of dyslexia,so i still can read and understand a very good english grammar,if i m not typing correctly its cos i rather write as u all speak,(all wrong).fuck u arsehole!!!!!!!

  83. boro says:

    thanks 4 all!!!!!!!!!
    for this great time ive lost looking this site!!!!!!!kkk unbelievable.!!!!!!!! i met a lot of such a nice people like john.kkkk.BYYYYYYYE john.xxx

  84. giagia says:

    Boro, I’m not sure if you ‘kkk’ reference is some internet shorthand from another language or if you are implying that people here are like the Ku Klux Klan. Please explain. It has consequences.

    Sorry. You’ve still pretty much lost me though. I can’t really work out what your point is.

    As far as ‘waiting until it’s the right time to do science and instead just putting flowers in our hair and being loved up’, humans would still be living in caves if everyone took that attitude. Science and rational thought are the ONLY way we can progress and survive. And my ‘progress’ I don’t just mean ‘make everyone on the planet richer’ I mean ‘make everyone richer so they’re not starving to death and dying of treatable diseases and killing themselves and each other because they can’t think properly’ ie ‘progress from widespread ignorance’.

  85. nellly says:

    If the world was going to end in 2012 I know for a fact this government would not allow any of us to know about it.

  86. mitchell porter says:

    “kkkkkkk” is Internet laughter. I don’t know if it’s especially Brazilian but that’s where I first saw it.

    http://www.dicionarioinformal.com.br/definicao.php?palavra=kkkkkkk

  87. In 2012 will happen something special. Some say it is a pole shift. Some say the end of the world. Others say the time will reverse and the time is turning back. I say it is one of the million monkey-sandwich tales. They said: God will destroy the world in the year 1000. A millenium and a lot of this predictions later, we are still here. Of course: this world will have an end, but if there is coming a disaster, we have to ‘see’ that something will happen. The only thing we can do now is simply wait. And I hope, no I know that when 25 december starts, much people are celebrating Christmas.

  88. Catherine Higgins says:

    With all due respect…your article is very interesting and yes you may be right.. But I am one of those who feels that things are changing, but not the end of the world, it is more like a time to wake up and really see what is going on around and ask questions. This world and its *reality* is bullshit. The Mayan calendar could be wrong as many other predictions have been wrong (so we believe)…but look around…Is this so called reality we are living in so great? With a handful of people making decisions about my life and of Billions of others…surely we should flip the lid….a few points:

    Banks lose 700 Billion…the Government creates (invents) new money…World Poverty could be eradicated…so why can’t the World Government create (invent) this money to solve the problem. To me personally and to many others this whole situation with the world collapsing around, is the doing of the Elites who are pain-stakingly trying to keep hold of their ill-gotten gains and messing up world civilisation without care or concern.

    The problem (NOT) or shall I say the attitude of many including me is there may be a recession occuring at the moment, but because the mass of the population has been in a recession for most part of their lives anyway, this one makes no difference. The only reason this is a big issue is because the *Top Dogs*/Scapegoats and the rich are losing some of their wealth.

    I do not believe in apocalyptic events , but I do believe that what goes around, always come around. Karma…So to those in Power creating and executing this sad state of affairs better make sure they know what they are really doing…because their worlds is about to collapse around them…This is not a prediction… it is a fact.

  89. ANDY B says:

    Totally agree with ya Catherine. Exactly my thoughts too. I believe a population as big as our own needs a certain amount of structure built on a good solid foundation, as much as i hate the way this country organises itself, i know that i could be living in conditions far worse than the ones i have now. I really believe in the next few years there will be a series of events that will cause the people to stand up and revolt, i though will not be taking part in these cos im preparing myself to be self sufficient. This is what we should all be doing. If communities collapse, police barracade us in or whatever else, how do we see ourselves getting through it? How do you see YOURSELF getting through it? Simple survival techniques can go a long way. Learn to build fires and how to sustain them, learn different edible foods from various plants and trees, which shelters to make for certain weather conditions, how to filter water and make it safe to drink. These are the most simple of survival techniques that we should all know. And if riots do occur and you need to get out of where you are fast, these are gonna be the things that save your life. maybe im looking into it a little bit too much, but survival tests are one of my passions and i try to bring it into as many peoples lives as possible. Most of us need to realise that we will all die one day and noone will notice us or thank us for the work we have done for this country. So ask yourself is the life you live worth it? Will you fight to keep the life you have now where we are so very close to the country being a police state? Or will you keep an open mind and reason with yourself to say that, yes one day we might need to leave the cities and towns and hide in forests or woodland? Where we once came from and forgot all about….its not an impossibility so if there is that chance, it could very well happen. And scrap the 2012 fiasco, as much as i hope it is that soon that something will happen, even if it doesnt, would we all be so stupid as to not be prepared for something that could happen in 15yrs from now. The skills we learn today, will last us tommorrow, for a time when we will be so happy that we learnt just a little bit about how to look after ourselves when there are no governments to do it for us……peace

  90. row says:

    you summed it all up in one paragraph ! i had dwelled on the “prophecy” for about a week and thought of all the various outcomes. you have to admire the mayans-they were well ahead of their time but its how we interpret it that affects us – live life for each day,be good to people and be thankful for the life that some of us have- it could be worse ! we are a herd of sheep in the grand scheme of things. we believe what we read and what we are told , we pay the price of everything this government throws at us. we have lost our individualities as a culture and worst of all – poeple like my nan cannot go out after dark. lets hope its evolution we are all facing and remember if our world doesnt improve it wont be a bad thing if it all goes bang in 2012- until then just enjoy yourselves !

  91. Lee says:

    Having read most of this blog (mainly to distract me from radiotherapy revision) it’s amazing the number of different opinions that have been stated on this topic in a mere year! .. but what is a year? .. just a meaningless component of time? ..

    … yes I watched the documentary but lets not go back there. I had a constant migraine for about two days!

    I’ve been interested in the 2012 hoo-har for the last few months since I heard about the ‘planet X’ theory. Whilst very attractive in a doomsday kind of way, I think this talk of the world ending (like every other apocolyptic prediction) is merely a psychological facet, a way of making peoples lives seem more real and exciting. In many ways it has become a recent trend, with popular culture grasping it firmly to its bosom and sprouting many hollywood productions like ‘the day after tomorrow’, ’28 days/weeks later’, ‘I am legend’ and (suprise suprise) an upcoming feature film of ’2012′!

    When the world does end I believe it’s going to be something much more visable, an asteroid collision, a major viral epidemic, a chain of events leading to the release of WMD’s. But in the same breathe I don’t believe any of these factors would destroy the world or ALL of the people inhabiting it, just drastically change our modern, lazy lifestyles. Like Andy B stated above, we’d have to re-learn the primitive skills most of us have long since forgotton.

    I don’t believe that the Mayan prediction will come to fruition, however I do believe with many of the posts above that the coming years will lead to a new awakening. Whether it be as a result of the ever more serious consequences of global warming or the recession, that people will start to view the world in a new light with heightened responsibility .. though most likely things will carry on as exactly as normal despite this and my opinion is just overly optimistic banter.

    I don’t believe that the people who have spoken out against CERN are against science per se, but its natural fear. We’re blindly jumping into an area of science of which we don’t know the consequences. To be honest I don’t know a great deal about the topic and so don’t wish to overstep my boundaries, but since it has been switched on for some time and the world hasn’t ended (to my knowledge) – but what is an ‘end’ but a marker of time, and what is time but a … sorry.. it can only further our knowledge, thats my point!.

    In the end it’s not going to be the ‘lay’ person that decides whether these scientific risks will be taken, it’s no good saying “This is too dangerous” when the bloody thing has already been built! Whether these projects go ahead is very much out of our hands, thats government.

    However, I do agree that scientific enquiry CANNOT be the be all and end all, true you don’t get as far progression wise if you don’t take risks but the the price has to be right. The physiological experiments that took place in Nazi Germany for example, proppelled biological sciences years ahead of were they would have been. Yet the retrospective cost of that knowledge can widely be percieved to be too great. On the other hand WW2 very much generated a scientific renascence that equalled it’s cost.

    All in all in order to avoid myself getting dragged into an ethics debate I shall state ‘There has to be limits to scientific progress, caution is paramount but within reason’. – let it be known.

    From a lowly student in Manchester I bid you farewell … see you all on the 22nd Dec 2012 when NOTHING HAPPENS! *L

    Ps.. GIAGIA .. if you have indeed ‘bagged’ Brian Cox, bloody well done! ; p

  92. Joel says:

    I Love Lee =)

  93. giagia says:

    Lee – if by ‘bagged Brian Cox’ you mean met each other 8 years ago, got married 5 years ago and are now having a baby, then I guess I have indeed ‘bagged’ him. (I’m going to assume you didn’t mean that in the shitty way it sounds)

  94. Lee says:

    Haha, of course not, congratulations!

    Hows everything at CERN? Have you not managed to puncture a hole into another dimension yet? : p

    Actually your possibly a good person to ask, I’ve got an upcoming exam on the fundamentals of radiation physics, do you know of any good reading material?

    It’s specifically for medical uses but anything that provides a general good introduction would be helpful, I’m still trying to find my feet with it as it’s a new field for me .. not that you’re a library resource, I just tend to be inept when it comes to finding relevant material.

  95. WILL YOU ALL STOP WORRYING i am a worrier but i do NOT believe the world will end in 2012 get a grip people the world was meant to end in the millenium did it? NO it was meant to end in 2006 wen a astroid was PREDICTED to crash to the earth did it? NO it was meant to end wen they started the big bang machine did it NO you have to ask yourselves why people say these things to scare us look at the pattern on december 22nd 2012 you will ask your self did the world end as predicted NO !!now just enjoy your life as it is it will end when ure time comes thank you x

  96. D-Dawg says:

    The more i hear about, 21/12/2012 the less I believe it. I done the whole worrying thing a whole year ago now and got over it, but something I read recently brought it back. An Irish Saint – Malachy supposedly had a vision of all the popes, and if he was right it makes pope benedict XVI the penultimate pope, which I supose could coincide quite comfortably with late 2012. This is of course disputed, so no one is really sure, but it still seems compelling and strange to me. And as for belief in God and belief in science, 2012 armaggedon or faries w/e, I believe wholeheartedly in God but I dont believe most of the Bible as it was written by men and has been constantly changed and misinterpreted, and only the teachings of Jesus and a few other things can be of any help nowadays as to how to live in a more loving, helpful and pious way for the good of everyone.
    furthermore, the fear of 2012 doesnt come from any self-loathing or depression or even from a sense of self preservation but mainly from the idea of how terrifying and horrific that day may be if it is truly the end and the fact that not only would I be dying, but everything along with me. The fact that I could die doesnt scare me but the possibility of everything dying whenever(not neccessarily 21/12/2012) is a heavy burden upon me, but I’m sure I’ll get over it once again in a few weeks/months.

    PS. Sorry for the long post, and I watched your husbands horizon documentary on BBC 2 – it was excellent, I loved it good job!

  97. Tamara says:

    I’ve been always told that we should go with the most simple explanation. What if:
    1) They ran out of stone, so stopped making calendars
    2) The astronomer hired for the calendar making was fired or retired and they were in the process of training someone
    3) They shifted to a different religion or philosophy (let’s stop watching the stars, there are more interesting things around us)
    4) Budget for astronomy was cut and they invested the money in warfare (Aztecs were really trying to dominate the Mayans and even were copying their culture and stealing technology and knowledge)
    5) They thought: We are so ahead of time, let’s chill for a while
    6) Or just thought 2012 (our year, not theirs because… well you know, we made our own calendars based on some other calculations or natural-political-religious events) was a good moment to stop.

    I don’t criticize the fact that people have the right to believe. What I do criticize is that people live with fear. Fear of technology, of God, of science, of parents, of the world ending, of people dying, of religious groups, etc. And I condemn those who have used that fear to control people. How about Mayan wanted people to fear? What if they were no better than us and used that fear so they could control? And I say no better than us, because our era is based on control because of fear. Fear is irrational and is not even a feeling, is a reaction to what we think is the worst for us to happen.

    Live today, plan for tomorrow, cherish the past and forgive. If you are scientist or a religious person or someone who doesn’t even believe in anything, even if you are an internet troll. Try to free yourself from fear. And the only way to do so is to question all the information and base yourself on any fact (and facts do not come only from science, because love can be a fact… and not necessarily be explained by it).

    And Gia, btw, I just wished I could have been a science groupie too… I love science! But, I’m stuck as a purchaser and if I ever get the chance to do different, I will… in the meanwhile, I live for today… not fearing about if I ever will have a dream job as you do.

    Congratulations.

  98. Tamara says:

    And just to emphasize that I’m not a Mayan hater, I am mexican, proud of my native ascendance… even my dad did his PhD thesis on Mayan. As a kid I wandered through the jungle following him through villages in Yucatan and playing at buried archeological sites. I admired them A LOT. But, they were human, just as we are. No much difference between their genes and mine.
    PS: If I spelled anything wrong, my apologies. I tried my best.

  99. Darcy says:

    Hi Gia!

    I haven’t been around in ages, it’s good to hear you and Brian are doing so well.
    As far as the Mayans go, if they couldn’t predict their own demise, I’m not too worried they can predict ours. :P

  100. brindy says:

    People seem to think that the Mayans created this calendar, but evidence suggests that they inherited their calendar in much the same way they inherited the cities they lived in.

    The calendar does not stop part way through, it stops at the end of a calendar cycle. They clearly did not believe there was a need (or more likely they did not know how) to extend the calendar any further.

    What I’m saying is that, this isn’t a prophecy, it is the result of a mathematical calculation, that combined with superstition and time has been labelled a prophecy and thus been devalued by a society that is ever becoming more secular (and rightly so) and skeptical.

    The demise of the Mayans, and those that followed, was at the hands of man or freak conditions that could not be predicted without some kind of supernatural ability. I don’t believe in the supernatural, but I do believe in science, mathematics and reason.

    The fact is, and this really is a fact, the interpretation of their calendar ends when a solar activity cycle ends. And not just any solar activity cycle either, this cycle is the end of a lot of smaller solar activity cycles.

    NASA even issued a warning, of sorts:
    “Dikpati’s forecast puts Solar Max at 2012. Hathaway believes it will arrive sooner, in 2010 or 2011.” from http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/10mar_stormwarning.htm

    If observed for long enough, all of these cycles are predictable using maths, and given that they inherited their calendars from some kind of advanced human race that has long since disappeared (google: Quetzalcoatl) then it is feasible that those humans were able to have observed the solar cycles directly and then create math which can predict them.

    Given all that, if the Mayans were unable to extend their calendar, because they did not understand the math themselves, being highly superstitious as they were, they are likely to say that ‘the world will end’. However, they do also say that ‘the world will be bathed in fire’, which sounds very much like something to do with the sun to me.

    Personally I don’t/can’t believe the world will end then, or what is the point in living? But given what the report commissioned by NASA and NASA’s own warning is saying is going to happen on that date, we should at least be prepared for the side effects of massive solar output; massive data loss due to EMP type effects, power outages, extreme climate change and so on.

  101. Tom says:

    Where to begin with a conversation that’s been going on for over a year!?!

    Has anyone else noticed the recent entries are swinging towards supporting the whole 2012 change thing? Funny that. hehe.

    Anywho I have a few things to say about a few things that people have said and some other stuff too that will probably be more at home in this conversation than elsewhere.
    One thing I’d like to make clear though is that at no point am I saying I know best or that my knowledge of anything is higher than anyone else’s knowledge. The reason I say this is because I will sound like I think what I say has lots of importance etc, it’s just passion for a good debate and good argument.

    Right – Gia, I’m sure I read somewhere in here that your are, or by now maybe were pregnant. I hope this is going/has gone well and that all is as you and your partner would hope it to be. That’s the important but said, on to the debate.
    At the very top of this you say something along the lines of there being many “world changing” events that have happened that were not predictaed as such and therefore lessen the claim that any “world changing event” happening in 2012 would be significant, shall we say. You’re even kind enough to list a few examples: Penecillin, what about Penecillin? If it was used to it’s fullest potential then maybe you’d have an argument in my eyes, the fact that it helps the more fortunate in the world is no bad thing, but WORLD changing it is not – The Universal declaration of Human Rights, nice idea – lets be real though, the declaration of independance is a truly beautiful document to read but when it’s put into effect in it’s now more modern setting it somehow seems to lose the impact it was intended to have on the New World, would you agree?
    Moon Landings, yes – changed that part of the world that was aware of our stepping off of the planet and onto our nearest neighboor for all of a year, ripples for a deade maybe? Where are we now in terms of our manned space travel? War takes precidence over adventure I’m affraid so a change it may have been but what lasting impact has it had globally that is actually worth a mention? Please let me know. Lastly you mention the fact that even Live Aid made US more aware of the “less fortunate”, it’s impact was so great that some 20 or so years later our “less fortunate” brothers and sisters are, well – less fortunate. the fact that you refer to a hugely vast number of human beings as simply “less fortunate” kind of shows it’s impact I’d say?
    You also mention that we have gone through many world changes since the end of the Mayan civilisation, this would make sense to any Mayan though as according to their belief system we HAVE gone through different ages since the “end” of their civilisation so that’s not a big a point in my mind as you maybe intended it to be.
    I also get the impression that your paragraph directly below “today’s date written according to the Mayan Calender” is a little mocking of the Mayan’s and any belief system without any real reason for doing this. Your reason soon becomes clear though, you disagree that 2012 has any significance over any other year in our future.

    My favourite part of what you’ve said (from an argumentative point of view) is your exchange with Ralph about CERN etc and in the main about Hawking Radiation which you say is beyond your understanding, yet you feel your knowledge of Mayan civilisation and ALL that comes with that is ample enough for you to start this off in the first place? Are you an authority on Mayan civilisation or is your knowledge of the Mayans similar to that of Hawking Radiation – incomplete?

    Kevin – Do you really view our home (planet earth) as an insignificant little planet? If so why? If not what’s your point? Sounds like a very western scientific view to me, we are the obervers in western science aren’t we? Seperate to the experiment which we observe. It’s upsetting to me that Science has caused this view in a few people (read many hundreds of millions) with it’s idea of observation as being from without that which it observes, this makes no rational sense at all!
    Science does not have and will never have all of the answers because as Max says, unless there is evidence for Science to observe then Science need not be involved (or waste it’s precious time). Max is talking with reference to Religion which in the main Science has become – there is a dogma to scince, it has it’s rules to be adherred to and even when those rules seemingly contradict what we observe we stick to them – knowing a modification is needed to “make it work” Science in general is a track history of wrong ideas made right until they are eventually proven wrong again. If only Religion could adopt a similar ethos the world might be a better place but hey, that’s for anouther time.
    The paranormal though is not Religion alone – far from it! How does Science explain monozygotic twins (forgive the many spelling mistakes – backing up Boro’s assertion that x % of the English speaking world is handicapped in this area I am no different, I can’t spell dyslexic – see) seemingly living identical lives when they have been seperated at birth and taken to opposite sides of the globe? Pre-cognition, spirits, remote viewing and so on – the list goes on and on and Science offers no real explanation for any of these because it simply can’t, it’s outside the scope of our wonderful Science. The very bedrock of Science itself cannot be fully explained by science – that little thought that has “popped” into many a Scientist’s head (INSPIRATION!!!!!) has no Scientific explanation. Sure someone out there will argue that the sub-concious mind can chew on an idea and when a solution presents itself suddenly throw that idea to the conscious mind – but the subconcious and the idea of self are paranormal to Science – we do not understand our own innermost workings yet.

    I’m not attaking Science I promise! In general I love it with a passion and am immensely respectful/grateful and sometimes dependant of all that man has done in the name of Science and will continue to do.
    To say though that the only way to further our Universe is through applied science and rational thought though is akin to utter madness. Rational thought alone cannot account for all that we experience – not even close. that’s current rational thought though – it changes of course as do all things, that is inevitable, just as I hope things WILL change for the better in 2012 and that maybe, just maybe a civilisation which existed so long ago had a positive thought in mind when thinking of us – the future generation and not the negativity that seems to be coming from a large portion of those that have commented here.

    Just think of the size of the Mayans environment – their habbitat was all that they could see, and they could see a lot! Simply knowing the name of the day in their world would have meant knowing where certain celestial bodies were, where they were in their individual cycles and the realtionships these cycles had with each other. What does Monday bring to mind – nothing by comparrison. This was their everyday world, their children would grow up having a picture in their minds eye of the observable solar system outside of the world they could touch – how much bigger was their horizon in comparrison to our own?

    The one thing I’ll never understand is the seperation of the human race from everything else. The Mayans were deeply connected with their world, and their world incorporated a 26000 year cycle which they lived by, not that they were simply aware of like we are, they lived by it and many smaller cycles, correct me if I’m worng but they also incorporated the 225 million year orbit of our entire system aroung our Galactical Hub, how much more involved would they have been with their world? The modern concept of time is so far removed from ourselves and all that’s around us that all we have is an ever increasing count of years and 365.25 day year. It would be pretty hard to have anything less significant with the exception of nothing at all or just randomness maybe? Like I said before – we are aware of these happenings around us but we believe they have no bearing whatsoever on our daily thoughts and motions. Those that do choose to acknowledge these outerworldly influences are deemed old fashioned and quite possibly a bit mad.
    Yet I’d still love to know what percentage of us look at our horoscopes – no matter how skeptical – in the hope that when we get good news, it may actually come true for once.
    The reason I’ve been harping on about seperation and the inclusion of our outer worlds influence on our inner most lives is simple…….

    WHERE IS THE SEPERATION????? At what point did mankind jump out of the universe? I mean Scientists belive in evolution right? Doesn’t have to be Darwins take on things, but the idea that we came from that which came before us. Taking this on the the biggest scale I can this to me says that we evolved from the earth, we are a product of our planets evolution. Some say life on Earth may have had something to do with an outside influence from a comet hitting the Earth etc etc – makes no difference because our earth and any possible comet both came from the same place also, the birth of our solar system, that in itself is a product of our Galaxy the Milky Way, which in itself is a product of a larger cluster of Galaxies and the devouring nature of our’s to grow and so on. This larger cluster would have come from “local galaxies” coming together over time and initially science says this all happened because of a big bang of some sort, primordial gasses doing their thing to the point the first star was born, we as a race are aware of what has happened from something like a millisecond after the big bang onwards, I’m sure someone out there will be more than happy to explain this in much greater detail and with much greater knowledge, neither are necessary for my point though. Back to the question….. Where’s the seperation? We are by all intents and purpose the universe. Truthfully speaking you can RATIONALLY say that we are seperate form anything that inhabbits this universe or that ever will. You can’t even really argue convincingly that we are seperate form each other. Anyone that has kids can probably understand this as it’s really intended. For some reason I feel we fail to see how intergrated we are – we are the universe. The universe has evolved something (us) not seperate from itself which can “view” itself, “hear” itself, “taste” itself, “touch” itself (not intended to sound rude) and “smell” itself – in short sense itself as we sense things ourselves and the world around us and our entire history and future as a race no matter how long that may be (the world will not end in 2012 – utter bollocks) we will always be an aspect, a part of something as beautiful as the creation of the world itself. There is no seperation at all, never was, never will be.

    It is my most humble hope that 2012 will bring a change and that the Mayan’s looked to this time too with hope and positivity and any negativity and false superiority we have with regards to them or any other aspect of our own history as a race will be superseeded by the truth.

    The truth is what we make it to be, we the universe shape the universe around us, the reverse is essential.

    Apologies if I’ve pissed anyone off, not my intention.

    Peace

    It is my

  102. Michael says:

    Good read, because its sensible. But the myan beliefs clearly gain weight ahead of other civilisations as they are the earliest found civilisations recorded with Sumerians. This is even more remarkable when you consider the knowledge they have of astrology (christs sake we thought we was the center of the universe a century ago) Sumarians knew the colour of planets thousands of years ago. It took till the 1970s to find out using satellites!!!! They also beleived in Nibiru. Worshipful man period it is refferd to by myans? hmm
    Theres a catestrophic event every 33 million years according to scientists ( its exactly that since dinosaurs went) Exiting times people!
    All this is speculation but one things for sure, and thats that archeologists seriously underestimate the advances of humans thousands of eyars ago.

  103. giagia says:

    Tom, your comment is too long for me to comment on completely. But my writing out the date in the Mayan way was in no way mocking. I don’t understand why you think it was. It was what it was. The date in a different system.

    My knowledge of the Mayan civilisation isn’t all encompassing. My knowledge that the future is entirely unknowable BY ANYONE including the Maya, is however, entirely complete. That is the point.

  104. giagia says:

    Michael, no the Mayans were in no way the ‘earliest found civilisation’. Their ‘early pre-Classic’ period was 1800BC. This coincides with the Egyptions’ 12th Dynasty. The Sumerians developed writing about 1500 years before the Maya were working out pottery.

    Their knowledge of *ASTRONOMY* (not astrology) was in no way different than most other early civilisations. The Egyptians, much earlier, were as aware of the movement of the stars as the Maya. It’s just that the Egyptians mystical focus was on the ‘Afterlife’ rather than ‘Time’.

    The reason ancient cultures knew the stars was because *they paid attention*. The night was as important as they day. They didn’t try and extend the day as we do now by artificially lighting up the night.

    We don’t need as big an asteroid impact as the dinosaurs had for it to be catastrophic. Asteroids 1km across hit us approximately every 500,000 years. An asteroid 2km (which his us maybe every 2 million years) across would have the energy of a million megatons. For comparison, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was 13 kilotonnes. A 2km asteroid would cause massive environmental damage on a global scale with starvation and disease wiping HUGE numbers of people out.

    So, there have been ‘exciting times’ many, many, many times since the dinosaur’s asteroid.

    And do archeologists REALLY underestimate ancient civilisations or do ‘New Agers’ overestimate them? I obviously, lean towards the latter.

  105. Michael says:

    i said ONE of the earliest..not the earliest and i love the way you completely dismiss the way they knew the colour of planets like its no great achievement.they were so primative i find it quite remarkable that they knew this and had an idea how the solar system works (just by looking at the stars in boredom) As i said it took a satellite to actually fly by these planets only recently to find this stuff out. There is evidence of cultures existing upto 30,000 years ago backed by carbon dating, primative maybe, but it cannot be ignored.
    p:s Since this is all about thoeretical stuff i just thought i’d add this in out of interest. Isn’t there supposed to be pyramids underneath the water that were found by cuba..or was it barbados i cant remember.

  106. giagia says:

    Michael, maybe you should look at what you wrote:

    “But the myan beliefs clearly gain weight ahead of other civilisations as they are the earliest found civilisations recorded with Sumerians.”

    Not ‘one of the earliest’. Simply ‘the earliest’. Don’t get mad at me. I just read what you wrote. :)

  107. D-Dawg says:

    the sumerians were the earlisest and not 30,000 years ago…. that was pre-civilization. more like about 10,000 years ago with the advent of achievements like farming and animal domestication. 20,000 years off is inexcusable…….

  108. giagia says:

    D-Dawg, it seems that either Michael’s been reading a lot of rubbish or, like a lot of people who ‘want to believe’, is just making stuff up to suit his argument. The fact remains, the Maya were not “magic”.

  109. Tom says:

    Sorry that I wrote too much for you to comment on Gia, and sorry too that the one point you did manage to manage to make a comment on you got wrong. I did not say at all that you writing the date in according to Mayan tradition was mocking them. It was the paragraph below the date that I was talking about.
    Nothing major though, just got the impression that you’re not the biggest fan of religion in general and your slightly flipant and casual comments on “all the usual gods and godesses” and “plain old serpant god” show this. It’s a bit loaded in the sense it shows your biased and unable to view things from a neutral stand point but that’s one of the best aspects of the himan condition eh?

    With regard to your sweeping, irrational, unscientific and incredibly biased statement that “the future is ENTIRELY unkown by ANYONE” I just can’t agree. I would like to know what you hold to be knowledge? Is awareness knowledge?
    My understanding is that to “know” something you must traverse the entire universe in order to observe every instance of this “knowledge” to qualify it as actual knowledge. Quite a scientific approach I’d hope you agree – more a philisophical definition. going by this we know nothing really – or can’t be sure we know anything so not that helpful – but is does show the grey area between a word and it’s meaning.
    We are heavlily influenced by the future everyday but you claim it’s entirely unknowable – the truth is it’s largely predictable thanks to probability and environment. We can say we know the Earth will be at “x” position in the sky on “x” date because we have learned from our environment how the earth moves aroud the Sun and we know that the probability of anyhting changing the Earth’s orbit is low – we do know that it is possible to alter the Earths orbit though so we can’t say we’ll know where the Earth will be in 10,000 years time as the probabilty that something powerful enough to alter the Earths orbit occuring has increased. That’s basic prediciton right? Hopefull you can agree with me there?

    It’s easier with a planet than it is with any sentient being especially ones as fragile as ourselves but there remains other types of predictions and other levels of awareness that science as yet cannot explain – account for etc.

    Pre-cogntion for example, remote viewing (not telling the future but still outside scientific understanding) and even such things as an ability in animals to sense a disaster before it affects them (this may have a scientifically explainable cause but this does not ditract from it’s outwardly paranormal appearance or relevance for we were once animals according to science and again according to science we originated in Africa and our homes were the African plains as far as I have been informed – sitting in the middle of 2 ideas would it make sense for us to have developed some sort of hightened sense of danger seeing as a large majority of the animals that surrounded us at that time were more than capable of ending our lives? If so what makes you think that ability would not survive within a few to this day?

    How do you explain the huge amounts of instances where people have cancelled flights, journey’s by sea, or doing something they had planned to do simply because they get a “bad feeling” – what is your explanation when that “bad feeling” has the result of saving a persons life?

    There are many of these stories if you care to look, better still if you can stomach reading them without doing it with a view to disprove it instantly you may actually gain something from it?

    There’s a book out there somewhere called “TIME – Gateway to Immortallity” It’s author has the unfortunate name of Wilbur Wright – it being unfortunate as it makes it impossible to search for any information about him or his book online – I recommend it to anyone who would like to try some scientific ideas applied to some very unscientific subjects – obviously it deals with time too.

    Peace

  110. Calraigh says:

    Tom-

    Nothing about your last comment, or the comment before contains one iota of scientific theory. I’m interested, genuinely, as to why you’d then choose to criticize Gia’s reasoning based on her ” unscientific statements”. You’re evidently not in a position to discern what is or is not ”scientific”. What say you?!

  111. Tom says:

    I’m affraid you’ve lost me a bit there Calraigh,

    the point I was making was that I thought Gia was being a little hypocritical. Her statement that no-one can know anything about the future at all was a bit much for me. I don’t see how that statement can be justified in the sense of philisophical argument, maybe you can?

    The reason I criticized or argued in relation to it being an unscientific statement was because of the importance Gia had previously placed on science in our world. For it to be so important in our world but absent from Gia’s thoughts when making a sweeping statement was odd to me. That was my point.

    Just so we’re entirely clear here the fact that I have not mentioned or input one iota of scientific theory in my previous comments does not render me incapabale of knowing what is and is not “scientific”. That’s what is known as assumption for your knowlege and is best to be avoided in most discussions as it can lead to one participant thinking another is either taking things to a personal level or at the very least is incapabale of disecting a point someone has made and so attempts to disect the person making the point.

    Since in my opinion your previous comment shows no understanding of the basics of beneficail discourse am I to assume that this is lost on you?

    One last thing – what exactly would I need to SAY in order for it to qualify as scientific theory in your mind? By it’s very definition a scientific theory needs to be tested before it can even become a theory – read higher up as this has already been discussed in relation to CERN and Hawking. Nothing I say on this blog can be a scientific theory as the majority of what I’m talking about is outside the scope of modern science so there is no “scientific” proof or theory for me to refer to. All I have is everyday experience of being alive and that’s where my thoughts are based. Not only my experience but that of others too.

    If what I say sounds too outlandish for you then I ask that you please look into some of it and apply your mind to it – skeptical or otherwise.

    Take it easy.

  112. giagia says:

    Tom, are you saying that it is perfectly possible for someone in 2009 to get valid, factual information from the year 3500? If so, please tell me the ‘scientific’ explanation for that. And also tell me why we *don’t* have information from 3500 (and, I beg of you, do not mention the Illuminati or some other ‘small group’ who *does* have that information or I will have to ban you out of rage)

    You are saying that the Maya were capable of divining the future. According to you, they were able to see the ‘end of the world’ in 2012. I want you to tell me HOW you think that is possible…

    I *DO* know that knowing the future is impossible because of the speed of light. If anything (such as information) was able to travel faster than the speed of light then not only would the future be knowable (as the information would be able to travel outside of of the Light Cone), but Time Travel to the past would be possible. If that were possible, then someone could travel back in time a la Marty McFly and accidentally or otherwise set in motion events which would cause them not to be born. If there was no cause and effect because of the speed limit of the speed of light, then the Universe could not exist. Elements could be destroyed before they were created. Galaxies could die before they were born. The Universe could not exist.

    Now…

    What about the many, many more times that people cancel flights or journeys by sea or blah blah blah when NOTHING happens. My husband just cancelled two flights. Nothing happened. Pre-cognition or just ‘cancelling a flight’? What about all the times one gets a ‘bad feeling’ and NOTHING happens? Pre-cognition or simply ‘worry’? What about all the times that you think of a loved one and they DON’T call? Pre-cognition or just ‘thinking of the people you care about’?

    I invite *you* to apply your mind to it cos, frankly, you aren’t doing that at the moment. You’re just hoping that magic exists..

  113. Calraigh says:

    Tom-

    First off, please pick up the nearest dictionary and look up the definition for ”outlandish”.

    Secondly, can you explain what you mean by a) ” beneficail” ( I think I know what you mean but I don’t want to make an assumption, y’know?)

    Thirdly, I completely agree, you are ”lost”. You’re evidently on shaky ground here, so without taking you to task too much- what point are you trying to make? You’re very confused and I think it would be to your benefit ( and that of ”discourse” ) if maybe you laid out the specifics of your personal philosophy, before criticizing someone else’s.

    Finally, as the the concept that ” no-one can know anything about the future at all” is, ”a bit much” for you and that you, ” don’t see how that statement can be justified in the sense of philisophical argument” despite the fact that it ISN’T A PHILOSOPHICAL ARGUMENT BUT A SCIENTIFIC ONE maybe you’d like to explain how the opposite of this is true?

    All I ask is that you ”apply your mind” to the argument and use some of these thoughts you speak of, that seem to be somewhere in and around the locale of ” being alive”.

    Take it easy now, won’t you. I wouldn’t want you to do yourself damage.

  114. Henry says:

    So let me understand something; the Mayans were “magic” and were able to import data from the future at speeds faster than light, allowing them to predict that the world would end in some sort of major event in the year 2012.

    Are we then to also assume that the Mayan civilization was the only ancient civilization whose “predictions” and “understanding” of the universe were accurate? I apologise if I am repeating what others have said as I only read some of the posts on this topic, but I felt inclined to comment when some of the posts that I did read were trying to convince me that the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, et al, had no idea what they were talking about. Mummifying the dead, the afterlife, offerings to gods. Somehow, only the Mayans had it right.

    So if the Mayans were so “smart” and we should embrace their “knowledge”, perhaps we should embrace human sacrifice as well?

    Forgive me if I seem a bit obtuse, but it just seems that no reasonable human being, of sound mind and conscience, can actually take this 2012 “prophecy” seriously. Yet here we have paragraphs and paragraphs of emotionally passionate individuals fighting to protect the honour of these Mayan magic-men.

    I think the real question that needs to be asked is, if it is actually possible to predict such an event as the end of the universe…to what end? What will we have achieved? Anything positive? NO. As Gia stated, nothing but negativity can come of it.

    Some people are choosing ignorance of science and provable facts. I am choosing ignorance of “magic”, if it does actually exists.

    If the world is going to end, then there is nothing I can do about it.

    More importantly, if the world is going to end, then I am not going to spend my remaining days worrying about it.

  115. Michael says:

    Maybe some people should look to educate others with their ‘infinate knowledge’ or so we are led to believe, with some useful answers. They should use this to explain how these ancient civilisations came about with the knowledge they had(particularly knowing what the colour of planets were ) rather than using it as a chance to further self indulge in belittling others by going of the point in dramatic fashion and having an orgasm over their own intelligence.

    ‘I *DO* know that knowing the future is impossible because of the speed of light. ‘…. If that isn’t the biggest thing i’v ever heard written as a fact when its the biggest theory there is then i don’t know what is reality anymore.
    p;s i think too many people have been watching star trek.

  116. giagia says:

    Michael, explain to me how the speed of light as a constant is a ‘theory’ (which I assume you to mean ‘unproved’) and tell me how you may know differently than 100 years of thousands of physicists. Then tell me how your satellite navigation system works. kbyethnx!!!

  117. D-Dawg says:

    As to what Gia said about going back in time and preventing yourself from being born(autofantacide), there are several hypotheses about how ‘the grandfather paradox’ -as it is known- can be overcome. One is parallel universe/alternate timeline, which is pretty self explanatory, any paradoxical act happens in(or results in) an alternate universe or timeline.
    Another hypothesis is Restricted action resolution. One variation of this, the Novikov self-consistency principle removes the danger of time paradoxes by putting forward the idea that anything a time traveller does in ‘the past’ must have already been a part of history and already happened, so the timeline is self consistent. This hypothesis is unpopular because it removes the notion of free will.
    Another restricted action resolution idea is that if someone did travel back in time, the laws of nature or another cause would prevent them from doing anything paradoxical e.g. If a time traveller attempts to shoots his grandfather, the gun will jam, the grandfather will survive the shooting, it will turn out not to be his biological grandfather etc…..
    Furthermore, many scientists have claimed that time travel may be possible, just not plausible.

    P.S I am in no way saying I believe the Mayans could predict the future or anything, just that time travel could (supposedly)occur someday.

  118. Brindy says:

    At the risk of digressing further I should point out that time travel is possible, just not plausible, as stated above.

    I’m travelling through time right now at a rate of 1 hour per hour. The question is can we change that rate?

    The answer is yes, but don’t take my word for it – NASA have a good reputation for being scientific:
    http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/en/kids/phonedrmarc/2003_may.shtml

  119. Michael says:

    Scientists do not Know..they theorise..its part of being a scientist, trying to explain the unexplained. Do you want to know how they deffinatly do not know.. Because it simply hasn’t been done!
    ’100 years of thousands of physicists’ I’m pretty confident they think its a theory rather than concete fact and i’m pretty sure so many scientists have been wrong before..(earth wasn’t round.even einstein was wrong about quantum physics)
    Just because man doesn’t know anything faster than the speed of light doesn’t mean we should base the entire law of physics of the universe within it.

  120. D-Dawg says:

    Hold on we’re discussing time when the main man to discuss time with is Dr. Brian Cox lol. Do we know what time it is? o_0…..

  121. mitchell porter says:

    Also consider the Unixian calendar, which began in December 1901 and will come to an end on January 19, 2038. In fact, in the Unixian calendar it was 1234567890 just twenty thousand seconds ago!

  122. giagia says:

    Michael, I’m bored of your childlike arguments now. Honestly. My husband is a physicist. I have discussions all the time with him about time travel etc. If you think scientists “deffinatly do not know” (sic), then please explain to me how anyone else knows *differently* to physicists.

  123. giagia says:

    Bindy, yep, the rate at which we travel into ‘the future’ can alter (which is mind-blowing!), but we cannot travel into the past. Neither can information from 2012 travel back in time to the Mayans so they can chisel it into stone.

    I’m still waiting for Michael (or anyone else who believes this silliness) to tell me how they think that would be possible. I expect I’ll be waiting a long time. :-/

  124. Michael says:

    ok Its 100% certain FACT that time travel occurs if you go past the speed of light because your husbands a physicist, and because scientists ‘theorys’ can never be wrong. It is a theory as it has not been experimented on or observed. Or i might aswel make stuff up and say its true. But yes im such a child for questioning your unscientific science because you can not be wrong you are god.

  125. Smulder says:

    @ Michael: Dude, please, you’re embarrassing yourself. Stop posting.

    Example: “It is a theory as it has not been experimented on or observed.”

    What the? Seriously mate, you should do your homework before posting such drivel.

  126. Brindy says:

    Hi Gia,

    I agree about traveling backwards in time. I also agree that the Mayan’s couldn’t have known the future, because that implies supernatural ability which I just can’t subscribe to. There is evidence to suggest however, that more advanced humans than the Mayans actually made the calendar and that they just inherited it. The problem is seeing that far back as there were very few records, especially after the Europeans effectively raped native America.

    In support of that argument, varying levels of technology has been observed for thousands of years, even in our more recent history. For instance, I live about a mile away from the Antonine wall in Scotland which was created around 2000 years ago by the Romans, but the likes of which was not observed again in Scotland until the 1700s. 1700 years of man not understand a technology they had clearly had a good grasp on. When I stand on the mound overlooking the gully, which is all that remains of the wall, I am astonished that we some how ‘lost’ that technology and it took us so long to find it again.

    So the Mayan’s had this calendar which was based on some observable cycle beyond our current understanding. I think that’s fair because the Gregorian Calendar which the western world uses today is based on the observable cycle of the solar year. Scientists have relatively recently been able to observe cycles in Solar activity, so if the Mayan’s (or more likely someone else) had access to the technology that allowed them to make the same observations it makes sense they’d build their Calendar around it – especially if the end of the cycle (roughly every 5000 years) resulted in a natural, predictable event, which affects people on a global scale.

    Like I’ve said before, I believe the Mayan’s simply didn’t know how to extend their calendar, since they inherited it, and the ‘chinese-whispers’ of 1000s of years have turned this in to an over-rated doomsday prophecy.

    Thus, I am not saying it is the end of the world. Something might happen (NASA scientists have already stated that there will be a Solar Max around that time), but I suspect that mankind will prevail. =)

    Btw, have you read Fingerprints of the Gods by Graham Hancock? It is a good book and links together all kinds of things from around the world, with staggering implications, though it has to be read with an ‘open mind’. :)

  127. giagia says:

    Michael, dear oh dear…

    One more time, otherwise I’ll just have to stop you commenting… You disagree. Fine. Please then tell me *exactly* how you propose something travels faster than the speed of light. Do not, once again, just “answer” with a childlike ‘well, I don’t think that nyah’.

    Grow up, son. It’ll do you good.

  128. Bodhipaksa says:

    Gia, I don’t know where you find the patience to deal with all the nuts who are attracted to this kind of topic. I am in great admiration of that and of your writing, and I’m looking forward to reading more of your blog.

  129. giagia says:

    Bodhipaksa, I’m pleased I come across as patient to you. I’m anything but… ;)

  130. Joe says:

    Regarding 2012 and the mayans.
    I think they knew more about the universe than we do now, they described pluto clearly and modern science found it in the 1930s.

    They stated there was 12 planets we have foud 11 sp we must assume that there is a 12th planet because they documented it.

    I dont believe the world will end in 2012 but it could be the end of a cycle which could mean anything.

    Whether people believe different is up to them and should not be ridiculed.
    For instance i keep hearing about this war in iraq’ I dont believe it as Ive never been there and dont believe such a place exists.

    You maybe be able to show it to me on a map and pictures from foc news but the mayans left maps showing the twelth planet yet people dont believe that.

    So prove to me that this place iraq exists and whatever proof you can get then i could produce the same regarding the 12th planet.

    One thing ive noticed is that past civilizations are regarded as not smart and all there writings about giants gods from the sky are dismissed where i feel we have not reached the intelect shown by people from our distant past.

    I think people who comment on this place iraq are nuts as the place does not exist as no one has shown me any proof yet/

  131. Joe says:

    Gia
    you went on earlier in the thread about CDs The Web etc stating how science was gave us everything where a lot of things we have are thanks to innovation and have come from people with no scientific background.

    Scientists and false science are used to enforce policy.
    I was diagnosed type 1 diabetic in sep last year and as a smoker done a lot of research and i mean a lot, smoking does not cause cancer or heart failure anymore than signing dixie does.

    It was decided to link cancer to smoking in the 1950s and early experiments were a joke trying to induce lung cancer in animals where tumours appeared on legs back etc after feeding the animals every toxic thing they could lay their hands on. and the guy who did all this was a Mr Doll who admitted in 2001 that it was nothing more than propoganda’ well intentioned but propoganda all the same.

    Constantly we are told smoking kills but nowhere in the world will you find a surgeons report or post mortem with died due to smoking written on it.

    Yet every person you talk to believes smoking kills, and because we have less smokers and more people dying with cancer they come out with this beauty “secondary smoke” now with no smoking in public I wait to see how they explain the rising cancer numbers.

    Did you know that in the USA 4 times of never smoked woman die of lung cancer than die of cervical cancer each year yet this is hidden and breast and cervical cancer are constantly in the news.
    Now we are seeing the same with global warming’ opps sorry I forgot they changed the name to suit the weather to climate change.

    So I take every statement made by scientists with a pinch of salt as they are a disgrace and will peddle any government misinformation to get on the grants gravy train and produce results their paymaster require rather than true findings.

  132. Guy M says:

    Gia, I’ve only just started reading this blog and still have a lot to read, however, before I continue with it I just wanted to show you a bit of support. It seems to me that there are a large number of very opinionated people who read and comment on your blog. It further seems to me that a large percentage of those people have little to no understanding of science, yet feel compelled to decry the work of CERN et all and machines like the LHC. Not to mention, of course, their unfounded belief in prophecies.

    Presumably these are exactly the sort of people who once used to burn people in the assured belief that they were witches!

  133. Joe says:

    No Guy you have that back to front, you and g are the ones who used to burn the witches.
    You have an unquestionable belief that science should be believed and nothing else which is the way people used to follow the church in the middle ages.

    We all have brains and there is that much mis information out there we all have to make our mind up which we believe.

    G refuses to allow a guy to put his link in calling it nonsense’ well thats an opinion not science and only her opinion and i cant comment only because it was deleted which was the way the witch burners used to stifle thought and now i have to take g word that it was nonsense

    If science was a truth finder and nothing else then it would be easier to believe everything they told you but the truth is scientists (only some) have been guilty of re writing research to fit with their own agenda and only a fool would blindy follow anything they say without double checking it twice.

    for years in the UK we have had advertising on tv telling us how bad drinking is whilst pregnant now they are saying that a pregnant woman can drink 2 glasses of win a day despite a half bottle of wine having more lead in it than 20 pack of cigs, they say that pregnant woman who drink will have more outgoing kids, (are they taking the piss)

    when I was diagnoised type 1 diabetic all the booklets that I recieved says I can still drink the same as normal which is utter rubbish as I have seen the effects of drinking when diabetic and you will lose your sight I have seen this first hand, yet they have changed this to smoking will make you lose your sight, but they do not say it outright (they say diabetics will eventually go blind YOU SHOULD NOT SMOKE IF DIABETIC) check it out whether its cancer research or any other group they say could and maybe but will not actually say smoking does this smoking does that.
    What they say is that everyone should know the dangers of smoking by now its been well proven ( without supplying any evidence)
    Smoking could contribute to heart problems’ could could could not will.

    Since being told I have type 1 diabetis i have never had a drop of drink not one which is hard for a scotsman but continue to smoke because it has not been proven to me smoking causes cancer or anything else.

    For years I have said to my sons well maybe smoking will kill me but I’ll not get demensia as a 25 year study from sweden in the 80s proved smoking stops you losing your marbles yet last week the health minister says that it a well known fact that smoking causes demensia; you could have knocked me down with a feather.

    You see people take science and turn it around to say something else so you should not follow blindly anything anyone says that includes what i say check it out for youself and then decide.

    People tend to listen more to people who have letters after their name or studied a certain thing instead of using their own reasoning.

    If it helps any I have letters after my name and won Inventor Of The Year at the Barbican in London 1976.

    One thing I saw there was this amazing stuff that 2 painters and decorators had[ you could put this grease on your hand and use a blow torch on it and it would not heat up or burn your hand; the last i heard nasa was using it for the shuttle to stop overheating on entry.

    These guys came across this by mistake as they tried to start a fire to warn themselves up on a cold december morn on a building site, they through 2 things on the fire and they mixed and would not burn, so they tried again and it would not burn or even get hot so they developed it into a grease, no science background at all.

  134. Henry says:

    Joe – there is a very fine line between questioning everything in search of the truth, and paranoia. You, my friend, have crossed the line well into the depths of paranoia.

    There is a very fine line between keeping an open mind to the unknown, and living in ignorance of the facts at hand. Again, you are living in ignorance.

    The FACT that smoking kills is basic chemistry and biology. Maybe if you’d have paid attention in school instead of daydreaming about conspiracy theories then you might have learned that a long time ago.

    Your comments are laughable at best. Please, do yourself a favor, come join is in the real world. It’s quite nice. You should try it sometime. There are no evil scientists trying to give you dementia by telling you not to smoke here.

  135. Joe says:

    Henry read your post again and then look at the title of the thread,
    Apocalympics 2012 – Mayan “Prophecy”” you dont know what your doing’ why are you even in here if your so sure about what you have been taught.

    The FACT that smoking kills is basic chemistry and biology) is that so, then it proves what Ive been saying all along that year on year studies by scientists are a waste of public money and time when they could have just come to your school and got the information,

    Listen Its like talking to bible bashers regarding smoking you will not even check it out before commenting so I’ll not waste my time they have moved on from smoking to climate change and in the 50s it was masturbating that could cause all the things that smoking causes,if you were alive in the 50s you would be preaching that its a proven fact that mastubating is damaging as its basic chemistry and biology..

  136. giagia says:

    Joe, you are a moron. Keep smoking. In fact, start smoking even more and, please, make sure you never breed. Use the money you’d spend on kids to smoke even more. And remember me when they give you your first oxygen tank. kthnkxbye!

  137. Hennie says:

    Joe, if you read further up, you’ll see Gia asking someone to please explain how his GPS system works if he insists that the speed of light is not a constant.

    Now, you say, amongst other things:

    “I take every statement made by scientists with a pinch of salt as they are a disgrace”
    “Scientists and false science are used to enforce policy.”
    “scientists (only some) have been guilty of re writing research”

    To which I say, then, kindly refrain from using the internet to make the above comments, seeing as the internet is a direct result of the research done by those scientists you seem to hate so much. Just a thought.

  138. Tom says:

    Hi Gia – Calraigh,

    could either of you please quote me where I have said that I agree with the Mayan Prophecy?

    All I’ve said is that the future is largely predictable and that science doesn’t show otherwise – infact science doesn’t show that much at all in certain areas.

    “the future is entirely unknowable by anyone” I know that neither Gia or I will be here in the year 3500 to discuss this further – how can I possibly know this going by Gia’s statement? That is both Valid – (in this context) and Factual.

    Calraigh – the fact that you would choose to insult me in some attempt to maybe make me seem stupid or at the very least less worthy than yourself to make a comment on this blog shows me that you’re just a bit of a twat. If you can explain to me how writing “take care of yourslef – wouldn’t want you to do yourself damage” has anything to do with this discussion then I will happily retract my opinion of you being a twat.

    Maybe both you and Gia will find this hard to get your heads around but when I wrote “please apply your minds to it” it was written with respect for 2 poeple I don’t know and whom I believe are worth speaking to. It was meant with manners and respect not in a sarcastic or patronising manner. Since neither of you included the word “please” when quoting me you may have got it worng. If so that’s fine but either way please understand that some of us in this world aren’t so convinced that we have absolute knowledge and therefore still extend some respect to others and their opinions.

    Echoing what Brindy has said in a different way – is it so hard to imagine that 2012 is predictable? That any change occuring is simply an observation of a cycle This is all I have argued in favour of so far – the fact that I actually agree with you Gia about the prophecy seems to have been missed by both you and Calraigh – you’re arguing with someone who agrees with you – lets just say that one more time, you’re arguing with someone who agrees with you.

    I don’t agree that science is absolute knowledge, far from it. Therefore I cringe a little when I see these arguments that put science as being the be all and end all of factual knowledge.

    In relation to the speed of light – light is a constant in a vacum yes – there have been more than enough experiments conducted with regard to this – though I will say that both the special theory and general theory of relativity DO allow for particles that travel faster than C. Tachyon’s for example are theoretical particles that can do this, reminding ourselves that our much beloved photon is still partially theoretical – we know it’s there but it’s real hard to actually pin it down isn’t it? Correct me if I’m wrong but we haven’t yet managed to stop one moving to have a “look” at it? We’ve “detected” them though true enough. Though the speed of light is a constant there’s still a huge assumption at play here and that is that a photon has no resting mass – if it turns out in the future that a photon does have resting mass I’m sorry to say it’s back to the drawing board with physics.

    Gia – you’re argument about people getting bad feelings about travel etc and cancelling journey’s because of that feeling, then nothing happening – that suggesting that the times when something does happen need not to be taken into account makes sense – though I’d love to hear you explain your views to someone who has had such an experience and is still alive because they believed it and didn’t just explain it away as nonsense. Are we to weigh such things up in terms of majority rules or individual impact?

    It seems you like the majority rules logic system, even though it’s very often initially individual understanding and insight that furthers our race. Einstein. Going back briefly to the discussion about the speed of light – again “100′s of years and 1000′s of physicists can’t be wrong” – in that case neither can EVERY recorded civilisation in history Gia – for EVERY recorded civilisation has some form of religion. So going by your logic even though science hates the notion of a god out there somewhere we must believe there is a god as majority rules. Science can’t disprove god can it? No is the short answer.

    You can’t have it both ways – I’m making the assumption you don’t believe in god even though your logic for dismissing precognition implies that you must.

    Finally – science as wonderful as it is can not give us all the answers. Do we live in a world where everything carries absolutely no meaning? Please give me an example where science has given us great insight into the meaning of the world and why we are here? It never has – I hope it will but in order to do that it requires people to let go of this “I/science have/has all the answers” attitude – we clearly don’t.

    The reason I commented on this blog in the first place is because whilst I don’t believe the world will end in 2012 I do hope there will be a change. My hope is that a large amount of the bollocks our daily lives are consumed with will be gone and that we will begin to see ourselves for what we really are – children of the sun in the most literal sense – all of us. I would like to think we live in a world that has a lot of explaining left to do – where there is at least the possibillity of anything happening, and where those that inhabit that world do not instantly dismiss something because they think they know best.

    I wouldn’t say that I do or do not believe in prophecy – in my mind the jury is out, that’s the point. Can we really say that there is no way at all in any way shape or form that prophecy is possible? With all our science and observations can we catigorically say prophecy is impossible now and forever? We now have things occuring in science that seem practically supernatural, particle conciousness, instaneous communication between particles to name but two. The fact we now know for certain that our mere observation of an experiment can affect it’s outcome – how very unsurprising to those of us that had clocked that one aeons ago. Western science is about to enter it’s finest hour but it isn’t there yet – that’s my prediction/prophecy.

    Being completely honest I don’t think there is a Mayan prophecy – can anyone claim to have read the actual Mayan prophecy?

    Either way can we all stop being so sure of ourselves and maybe just maybe take each other seriously instead of belittling people we don’t know and acting like confused teenagers? If we could then maybe some of the more scientific minds on this blog could spend sometime contemplating some unscientific things?

    I do not think I know best – no one person does – maybe if people were a little more accepting of the fact that everyone is capable of being wrong sometimes the world would be a nicer place to be?

    Either way – hope you’re all good – sorry if I cause offence, unintended.

  139. giagia says:

    Jesus, this is boring the shit out of me now. I don’t *care* if any of you people want to fool yourselves about ‘magic’. Stick together with other loonies. Just be quiet around me. THANKS!!!!!

  140. ryan says:

    “science as wonderful as it is can not give us all the answers.”

    I must then direct my questions that science cannot answer to a mythical tea pot circling around the sun?

  141. Tom says:

    Yes!

    Though I think I prefer the idea of a toaster, never been much of a tea fan.

    We are indeed lucky to have modern science Ryan, however did we get by before it’s formulation?

    Just a bunch of unevolved bumbling idiots who had no understanding of the world at all.

    Please inform me of any responses you get from your teapot in relation to some of the more important questions.

    Why are we here?
    What is the meaning of all life?
    What IS love?
    What are emotions? Why do we feel them?
    Why is it certain musical notes (vibrations) make us feel the way we do? Happy, sad.
    What is thought?
    Is there a meaning to all things, nothing or just some?
    Why are humans seemingly so interested in the world around them and each other?

    I could go on, but I won’t.

    May you get answers wherever you look for them. If that’s from a mythical teapot then so be it.
    If it’s from Science then that’s fine too.

    I’d rather be able to take from all areas of the world and not shut any of them out because they don’t fit in with something else I believe I know.

    It’s what is known as the bigger picture Ryan, very few can see it.

    Most have their sight partially obscured by opinion, pride and a need to be correct.

    Ryan if science is right for you it’s right for you mate. As long as you spend as much time as you can smiling who really gives a f**k.

    Peace

  142. ryan says:

    I do kind of see where your coming from Tom, however im finding it difficult to fully understand your logic.

    Before modern science, there was science, the basics of trial and error to gain an understanding of how something works. From my point of view science came about as soon as the human mind started to evolve and we started to question the world around us.

    The questions you pointed out can all be answered with science, even before the term was thought up we were still questioning and experimenting.

    Unfortunatly as much as I ask the tea pot my questions it bears no answers. I cannot have blind faith in something that has no proof of existence.

    As you can probably tell from my post, my understanding of science is very basic and my spelling/grammar is the same.

    I do agree with you that everyone has the right to their own beliefs however everyone must also be prepared for their beliefs to be questioned. The great thing about the human mind is that it can ‘change its mind’. I am happy to listen to any ones beliefs as long as they are prepared for them to be questioned. I am happy when I learn something new from someone questioning my beliefs, I dont find it a threat as most people who believe in tea cups do.

    The people who believe in tea cups are encoraged to ignore all other logic, knowledge and beliefs as it has all been made up just to test their faith in the tea cup.

    Ryan :)

  143. alex says:

    well this makes very good reading :)

    The only real answer to this debate will happen on this so called date.

    Untill then i suggest we respect each others theorys and get on with respecting the time we have left on earth as it apparently say, im certainly not going to lose sleep over this matter, and carry on my satisfying life :)

    X

  144. Tom says:

    Ryan I completely agree with you, well everything except that science can tell us the answers to the questions I asked.

    Maybe it’s me who has a perverted perception of what science means, I will completely admit that but is it a question of semantics?

    I get the impression that the majority of what has been discussed on this blog is with regards to physics specifically, not science in general which would include such things as psychology, anthropology etc, less mathematical based science. So I agree science does attempt to answer the questions I asked overall, specifically physics does not though.

    Having said that I still don’t think it explains these things fully, science may explain the “mechanics” of emotions for example but that doesn’t explain the way they affect our daily lives, does that make sense?

    Just to clear something up, I don’t really buy into the whole god thing, requires too closed a mind as you correctly said and I feel comfortable saying this because I’ve made it my business to find out as much as I can about religion and god etc over the last 7-8 years. I could probably spend a good 7-8 years ranting about how religion is extremely damaging in my opinion but here’s the interesting thing – science is beginning to suggest that the universe could not have come into existence through chance alone, the probability of things occuring in the order they have and the intricate way in which they have (resulting in life) suggests what is known as “intelligent design”. There’s an obvious argument to that idea, that being that we wouldn’t be here to attempt to understand anything if it hadn’t happened the way it did, in a sense – it has to be this way but the point is still a good one, and relevant, as if prophecy is true, I’M NOT SAYING IT IS, it is generally assumed that this communication would come from a “higher being” as is traditional within religion for example.

    Again I completely agree with everything you say with the exception of science answering the questions I put forward most recently. If you could maybe explain how you think science answers the meaning of life question, or the question about love then I’d really appreciate it, I would be genuinely interested in what you have to say.

    Alex, likewise – you’re absolutely right!

    I’ll carry on enjoying my rather fine life once I get out of work :(

    Until the next time,

    Peace

  145. ryan says:

    “science is beginning to suggest that the universe could not have come into existence through chance alone, the probability of things occuring in the order they have and the intricate way in which they have (resulting in life) suggests what is known as “intelligent design”.”

    Hi Tom,

    I have heard the above said before, not sure where now. My personal take on this is…

    Yes, the probability of things being the way they are now from only one ‘try’ would be impossible. However imagine that there has been many billion ‘trys’ would it still be impossible to imagine that 1 or more out of billions is like ours?

    Just wanted to say that as its what I thought the first time I heard it however I hadnt had the chance to say it.

  146. D-Dawg says:

    Ok, 1) please condense your posts a little bit guys PLEASE, I come here for a quick look and end up having to read two guys having an argument and repeating themselves 5 times.

    Also, I dont believe science has all the answers, though I think that Joe is a freak who denies the harms of smoking to comfort himself. I do believe in God, there are many things we do not know, and to just dismiss all paranormal phenomena out there as bs would be silly.

    Whether the world will end in 2012, I dont know, no one does. I dont believe it will. I hope it doesnt as I want kids and stuff yet but cant stop it.

    The thing that really annoys me though isnt the random internet ‘mystics’ who shout about it, but the ‘experts’ who jump on the bandwagon.
    I saw a program about Nostradamus on the HISTORY CHANNEL where experts on his work tried to decode his final prophecies. These faggots then proceeded to claim his final works and drawings point towards the end of the world being……….yep, 2012. This really pisses me off. Why the fuck would the factual history channel choose to jump on the piece of shit 2012 doomsday bandwagon so quickly. This blatant scaremongering is fucking disgusting as is the way they toted it as fact. Fuck them.

    Sorry for the long post, I’m gonna feel like a hypocrite now after asking them guys to shorten theirs but I promise if I post again it will be short.
    I wish I had your confidence on the safety of the world on 2012 Gia, but now my doubts are there I dont think they will go away.

  147. D-Dawg says:

    The last bit of my last post made me sound like I believed it would happen, I dont. But we wont know for 100% until 2012 is what I meant.

  148. Zombie says:

    Phew…sense right there…but still all this global recession is sorta a concern…

  149. Homerthepoet says:

    The Maya’s are now all dead, they did not see that comming….another excuse for a party IF we are still here in 2013.

  150. martin says:

    I am always dismayed that Humans are so readily willing to believe worst case scenarios, its almost as If we are resigned that some terrible fate is going to befall us at any second.. The media plays on this, they Jump at every little thing and create mass panic.. swine flu anyone? Yes there are always challenges and difficulties but we are here to evolve and adapt as life always does to those challanges. I believe in the power of thought and the power of collective thought.. and I urge evryone to start thinking about happy endings and working to produce them.. because I have news for the doomsayers… we can yet have our paradise on Earth. Stop watching the nesw and reading newspapers, get together with communities locally and start working toward resolving problems.. problems of intollerance, problems of poverty.

    together we have the power.. the power to create or destroy, which do you choose?

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